Anybody with cd/lp demagnatizer?

Discussion in 'Audio Hardware' started by jenkovix, May 25, 2016.

  1. Agitater

    Agitater Forum Resident

    Location:
    Toronto
    I think you've misused Newcomb's quote. Newcomb (let's use the correct spelling of his last name) was railing against some tool and die makers and against some self-taught mechanically inclined people and against some in the academic community of his day who'd been closed-minded about the potential for powered flight, and who also refused to look at the science behind theories of powered flight and who rejected such theories outright without first applying scientific methods for peer review and experimentation.

    What some members have done in this thread is ask questions of other members who've rejected all rational science. That rejection has amount to, more or less, "I think the product does something, so it must be doing something, and any suggestion that confirmation of my expectations, in the absence of even the slightest shred of science that even vaguely supports what the product makers claim, is driven by uncontrolled biases and powerful or persuasive marketing and egregious rumor is either stupid or doesn't apply to me."

    In no way does inductivism apply to the people who report hearing differences or improvements after using provably nonsensical electronic accessory devices. They have not, as any old-time inductivist would have, challenged what they think they've heard by narrowing the listening parameters and reducing the number of variables in order, through concomitant repetition, to gradually eliminate variables to which differences might be attributed instead of the device. As well, nowhere in this thread have I read any of the scholastic attitudes of the kind you describe. Quite the contrary, a number of members have suggested that any sort of repeatable, controlled testing that clearly demonstrated a positive difference attributable to something other than chance would be welcome from any of the scam product makers. But they have no reproducible tests, their touted testing or proof is non-falsifiable because their products are utter nonsense, and their marketing jacks into the pervasively well-known desire that many people have to rely on the product makers' psuedo-technology for its own sake without even asking the most basic questions.
     
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  2. DigMyGroove

    DigMyGroove Forum Resident

    But I don't need to make a credible, convincing argument, not where audio is concerned (Gasp from the crowd!), all I need to do is trithfully report what I've found. So much about this hobby is subjective, all we can do is read, listen, and try gear and tweaks ourselves and see if they works with our own ears. I was as dubious as anyone when I first read about the demagnetizing devices. When I recalled that I had a tape head demagnetizer I used years ago I found it, gave it a try, and it did indeed make a profound difference on records and CDs. It's the carbon black in the vinyl formulation, and the ink on the CD label side that gain magnetism, and getting rid of it makes the difference, I've heard it over and over on many LPs and discs. What I find in these type of threads is there are naysayers who no matter what anecdotes they hear never give an inch that maybe, just maybe those of use who have tried these techniques are on to something and truthfully reporting what we hear. It's always no, no, it can't be from some folks. So I say again, spend $20 and try it out yourself. If you don't hear anything so be it, but I'm more than certain from my own experience that you will. Happy listening no matter how you do so!
     
  3. JBStephens

    JBStephens I don't "like", "share", "tweet", or CARE. In Memoriam

    Location:
    South Mountain, NC
    As an engineer who works with vinyl, I find all this very interesting, if somewhat improbable. What I will do (when I get time, of course) is record an album, then demag it (with the tape demagger) and record it again. Then I will subtract the second play from the first play. Anything that's left will be the result of magnetism in the vinyl.

    I can't be any more fair than that.
     
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  4. Ephi82

    Ephi82 Still have two ears working

    Location:
    S FL
    Peace. That is fine by me. I didnt want to be a naysayer, i guess i just need a little more data to buy in. Its just me.
     
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  5. Pastafarian

    Pastafarian Forum Resident

  6. Agitater

    Agitater Forum Resident

    Location:
    Toronto
    That of course assumes that it's possible in any case to make two consecutive identical recordings of the same LP, which it is not. How do you account for differences in static charge? How do you account for differences in the cartridge response? Turntable response? There are a dozen other variables. Suggesting that a simple differential would reveal only something related to the action of a demag device is optimistic at best.
     
  7. JBStephens

    JBStephens I don't "like", "share", "tweet", or CARE. In Memoriam

    Location:
    South Mountain, NC
    Hardware is incredibly unlikely to change its values within 15 minutes. If a cartridge changes response every few minutes, I'll throw it away, thank you. I WORK with vinyl. I'm acutely aware of its limitations. But I learned years ago to stop nit-picking so damn much and just LISTEN to it. It's made my life worlds easier. I was just looking for a sensible way to compare, since listening, demagging, and then listening again proves absolutely nothing.
     
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  8. Mel Harris

    Mel Harris Audiophile since 1970!

    Location:
    Petaluma, CA
    So, AccurateRip says no difference, but an audible difference is apparent? Ok...
     
  9. Pastafarian

    Pastafarian Forum Resident

     
  10. Nigel A.

    Nigel A. New Member

    Location:
    UK
    "Yes, but where’s the scientific “proof”. I hear you... So I offered some. I said I’d digitize a tune, then demagnetize the record and again digitize it and send them the files for spectrum analyses... And guess what? The spectrum analysis showed an altered high frequency balance that well-comported with what Ken, I and many others have reported after demagnetizing records: the high frequency portion of the spectrum was lower in level after demagnetization." (Michael Fremer)

    :)
     
  11. Thorensman

    Thorensman Forum Resident

    It's. A bit like burning in cablesand cryo genetically Freezing cables.
    One big joke. But , each to their own,
    I have failed to hear it.
     
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  12. Agitater

    Agitater Forum Resident

    Location:
    Toronto
    Interesting quote, but it's basically bereft of detail. We're just supposed to take it on faith that a plastic LP has somehow been demagnetized even though it's an object that inherently can't carry, generate or maintain a magnetic field in the first place that's capable of affecting a stylus or cartridge or anything else. Once again, in case you didn't read the earlier post on the subject, what Furutech boasts about regarding the Demaga is a claimed reduction of the strength of fields that, to begin with, are lower than the background magnetic field that exists in the typically most populous parts of the planet. As well, Furutech's claimed specifications for the effect of the Demaga don't seem to be actually based on tests using LP records of any kind. They're bench specs. Useless and misleading to audiophiles. That's because LP records can't carry or maintain magnetic fields that are relevant to music reproduction. The Demaga is a device that does nothing relevant to audio or music reproduction from LP sources. The Demaga is a lab or workbench experiment that did nothing useful, but that Furutech decided to merchandise and market anyway.

    Fremer reports all sorts of nonsense in and amongst the legitimate subjects he writes about. On this subject through, including the followup you posted, Fremer presents no scientific proof of any kind, just more of his say-so. I don't know what Fremer digitized or didn't digitize. I don't know if the difference that Fremer claims existed because of inevitable variations that occcur when doing manual recordings. I don't know if Fremer consciously or unconsciously modified his recordings to get the results he wanted in order to support Furutech or what he'd previously touted. Legitimate scientists and researchers screw up inadvertently all the time. Some legitimate researchers delegitimize their own work by P-hacking and all sorts of other stupidity. That Fremer is incapable of or simply unaware of how to conduct a repeatable test is unsurprising.
     
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  13. Nigel A.

    Nigel A. New Member

    Location:
    UK
    Thank you for both of your replies gentlemen... Having read through this entire thread, as well as having spent a couple of hours scouring the Internet for any and all related information, amongst other things I came across that quotation, so I posted it to see what you fine gentlemen would make of it...

    As it happens, I have worked within the professional audiovisual industry for over 25 years and amongst my qualifications I happen to be a scientist... So what do I personally make of all this? :wtf: :wtf: :wtf:

    In short, whilst I happen to agree with the most of what you say, I do not believe the circumstances are purely black and white.

    This really is a strange one and particularly grabbed my attention because the source of that particular quote, Michael Fremer, is someone well known and respected by many within the professional audiovisual industry and writes for both ANALOGPLANET and STEREOPHILE magazines, both of which are well-respected industry publications... So to say it was rather surprising to discover that particular person reporting not only that but also stuff like this would be a gross understatement:

    “Okay Ken,” I said lacing it with a dollop of sarcasm, “let’s demagnetize a record”. I even managed air quotes with my hands as I said the word “demagnetize”. I put the record on the Furutech’s spindle, hit the “on” button and waited for the completion of the automatic de-mag cycle. The volume was untouched of course and I again lowered the stylus onto the record. Both of us sat there in (audio cliché alert) stunned disbelief. This play sounded completely different from the previous one: it was smoother, less ‘etchy’ and produced greater depth and instrumental three-dimensionality. It was not at all subtle...

    Regardless of the reason for this phenomenon, it’s difficult to argue against its existence. I’ve repeatedly demonstrated record demagnetization to skeptics and everyone hears it!

    One such skeptic was Classic Records’s Mike Hobson... Hobson was beyond skeptical... Hobson left so convinced by what he heard that he formulated “Clarity Vinyl”... Hobson was so impressed, his audio distribution company EliteAV began distributing the Furutech Demag and still does...

    I devised my own test: I demagnetized one using Furutech’s newest Demag device ($3000), another using the Stein DE3 demagnetizer ($3200) and I left the third record untouched by demagnetic hands. And then I played them—first the un-demagnetized record... If I didn’t hear differences I was fully prepared to write that... the Furutech version produced no tonal surprises, but Metheny’s guitar sounded better focused and organized and the orchestrionic instruments also sounded better-focused, all emanating from a blacker background and more focused in space. Same with the Stein version. I then went back to the non-treated record and it was definitely less well-organized spatially with diminished instrumental focus."

    Where you can read the rest of this review article published in AnalogPlanet magazine HERE:
    'You Can’t Demagnetize Vinyl But You Can Demagnetize a Record: The Furutech (alpha) and the Stein Music DE3 Record Demagnetizers' | You Can’t Demagnetize Vinyl But You Can Demagnetize a Record: The Furutech (alpha) and the Stein Music DE3 Record Demagnetizers

    And then there's this review in THE ABSOLUTE SOUND magazine, which is another very well respected publication as well, this time by author Jacob Heilbrunn, where highlights include:

    "Hocus-pocus? Not in my view... what I can tell you is that it only took one LP subjected to the DeMag to convert me from skepticism to conviction... The before-and-after test was pretty darn convincing: The Furutech removed a layer of grit, glare, and haze, revealing a smoother treble and increased dimensionality. And it did this on degaussed LP after LP. On Dickey Betts’ album Highway Call, for example, it was obvious that his voice was cutting through the ensemble a lot more vividly. There was just no way that I could gainsay—as much as I would have liked to—the potent effect the DeMag had on improving the sound of a variety of LPs, ranging from classical to rock to jazz... Put bluntly, Furutech... has hit a home run with the DeMag... If you think this makes me sound bonkers, so be it. I only know what I hear. And what I’ve heard, and am hearing, has more than convinced me that I would be guilty of dereliction of duty if I passed up procuring this cutting-edge device. There are many bogus offerings in the high end that promise improved performance. This is not one of them. The DeMag simply magnetized me with its stellar performance."

    Where you can read the rest of this review article published in AnalogPlanet magazine HERE: 'Furutech Demag LP Demagnetizer' | Furutech DeMag LP Demagnetizer

    So, what the hell is going on here? :confused: :confused: :confused:

    Well, my two cents is as per follows...

    Firstly, subjective information is only supportive and cannot be exclusively proof or definitively demonstrable of anything... and 95% of ^^^^ is purely subjective.

    So, what objective data do we have here? Well, it's basically this:

    (1) TULLMAN's daughter, a scientist, has confirmed that vinyl records do indeed hold magnetic charges:

    (2) Michael Fremer reports that he digitized the same record both before and after 'demagetizing' the record and the result waveforms differed; and

    (3) Furutech claims that its Demag device reduces the magnetic field of a vinyl record from circa 620-630 nT down to 572-582 nT.


    Furthermore, I consider the following objective data to also be relevant:

    (4) A refridgerator magnet has a field of about 10,000,000 nT

    (5) The Earth's 'background' magnetic field ranges circa 25,000 - 65,000 nT


    First of all I would like to personally thank TULLMAN for taking the time and effort to have his daughter test some vinyl records and confirm that they do indeed hold magnetic charges. I don't believe that TULLMAN is making up stories, so let's all accept this as being true. Secondly, I am not prepared to call all of Michael Fremer, Jacob Heilbrunn, AnalogPlanet, StereoPhile, or The Absolute Sound magazine a bunch of liars, either... so let's all accept what is reported here as being true at least in the most part, as well.

    However, neither of these necessarily prove that these LP Demagnetizer devices improve the performance of vinyl records via demagnetizing them. So, does this mean that it's a load of hogswash and snake oil? Not necessarily.

    There are two influencial aspects here, namely: (1) Whether these LP Demagnetizer devices improve the performance of vinyl records; and (2) Whether or not they do so via demagnetization.

    With respect to the latter, TULLMAN's daughter has confirmed that vinyl records do indeed hold magnetic charges, and Furutech has measured this as being circa 620-630 nT; wherein, it should be noted that this magnetic field strength is 0.006% the strength of that of a typical fridge magnet.

    Additionally, it is worth noting that the reduction in magnetic field strength reported by Furutech represents a 7.62 - 7.74% reduction; and said reduction is only

    And finally, whilst the fact that the Earth's 'background' magnetic field ranges circa 25,000 - 65,000 nT, this is not in itself directly relevant because it's a baseline commonality; where, what is in fact valid here is the difference between the comparative total magnetic field strengths... Namely 25,620 - 65,630 nT versus 25,572 - 65,582 nT; where the difference is 0.073 - 0.187%.

    Consequently, the most important questions that need answering here are firstly, whether or not a magnetic field strength which is 0.006% as compared with that of a typical fridge magnet is sufficient to influence the playback performance of vinyl records in the first place; and secondly, is a differential of 0.073 - 0.187% in magnetic field strength sufficient enough to cause a significant difference with respect to the playback performance of vinyl records?

    Well, personally, I do not consider there to be sufficient information to properly answer those questions. Furthermore, the subjective information ^^^^ adds weight, however unfortunately not a considerable amount, because no blind subjective testing was carried out, nor elimination of the placebo effect, nor in fact were there any instances of repetition either, nor was there any elimination of variance or otherwise... Where really what's needed here is for all of these to occur.

    Therefore, personally, based upon what is at the present time an insufficient amount of information, I am unable to draw any conclusions either way... That said, whilst it could be considered to be improbable that a differential of only 0.073 - 0.187% in magnetic field strength might significantly influence the playback peformance of vinyl records, it's not impossible... After all, consider what are the meassurable percentage differences with respect to various cartridges, tonearms, and styli; and how very small scientifically measurable differences can produce profound differences with respect to playback performance :)
    .
     
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  14. Fishoutofwater

    Fishoutofwater Forum Resident

    You are so bloody right. He drives me nuts; i would however recommend his Torlyte platforms. I have one under my TT and CD and amp. Really effective. He is however, as you say, a snake oil merchant
     
  15. Dream On

    Dream On Forum Resident

    Location:
    Canada
    Picked up a new Furutech RD2 CD demagnetizer recently at an estate sale for a relatively good price. I'll also hit my CDs with a destat. I think treated discs sound different but I admit that it could simply be a placebo. I will also wash discs with warm soapy water (buy a lot of used discs...I generally don't do this for new). I figure at least the albums will be super clean and may help my player read properly. Again, I fully admit all sonic differences may just be placebo and not really there, but doing this scratches an itch and even just placebo is something. So I'll just keep doing it and not worry about whether the differences exist more than in my own mind.
     
  16. Agitater

    Agitater Forum Resident

    Location:
    Toronto
    For someone claiming to be a scientist, you seem to have ignored every legitimate practice of scientific method, relying instead on heaping one layer of hearsay on top of another layer of motivated reasoning on top of another layer of informal logical fallacies, on top of another layer of subjective hearsay, and then deemed your own resulting confusion to be sufficient basis for concluding that magic might be real. That's not a scientific approach on any level. Attempting to draw any conclusion from your concatenated copy & paste effort is completely inappropriate. All you've done is repeat the audiophile accessory tropes that have been disproved repeatedly over the years but which tropes keep rearing up again because people want to believe in them.

    Of course people hear differences and improvements when they're told such changes have just been effected by a black box device. The problem is, the claims made for these devices are extraordinary, something which begs extraordinary proof beyond the fleeting effect of subjective outcome peddling (or call it a placebo effect if you prefer). A legitimate scientist, should test all such claims objectively in a way that eliminates all the subjectivism, all of the motivated reasoning, and all of the tendency that people have to cherry-pick conflicting data to select mainly that which agrees with their existing opinion. In all such listening tests for any cables and devices, the apparently obvious differences formerly heard (at least briefly) surprisingly disappear, and the identification of particular cables (or even merely that a cable has been changed) and the identification of supposedly demag'd LPs drops to no better than chance or a coin flip or worse.

    I've stated it at shows and exhibitions and demos, and I'll state it here (again): I'll be happy to debate Fremer, Hartley and any of the rest of them about cables, demaging LPs and other audiophile snake oil scams in a moderated public forum as long as they're first required to participate with me in an independent research study set up to force truly objective listening circumstances on them as opposed to the entirely personally controlled, wholly subjective 'tests' they either engage in themselves or accept from others (usually others who are promoting a particular scam or semi-scam product). I've put the challenge directly to a couple of them over the years, but they've either declined or, most often, ignored the offer. I'm not really part of their world and I don't own a soapbox tall enough to embarrass them in any significant way, so they really don't have to pay any attention to me.

    Listen, I don't want to hurt Fremer or Hartley or any of the others. They're doing a job, they're passionate about audiophilia and music, and they work hard enough to earn respect much of the time. But when they use their authoritative positions to promote technical nonsense, psuedo-science, and irrational fantasy that amounts to magic, they have to be called out.

    James Randi has put up a million dollar challenge for anyone wiling to demonstrate the existence of ESP, prove superior claims made by audio and network cable makers, or prove other psyche and tech scams. His only stipulation is that the proof and testing be falsifiable, repeatable and conducted in a lab/research environment using objective scientific methods. Independent operators who challenged him on the existence of the million dollars in the first place ended up embarrassed when his backers stepped up through their lawyers to show them the money. I haven't personally got a million dollars I'm willing to put up on the Steven Hoffman forums. Rather, all I can do is offer to set up an independently managed and audited test, and then debate Fremer, Hartley et al about the results. They won't do it because they've spent the entire careers to this point, among other things, establishing their authorities as experts. They won't risk damaging all those decades of work and effort. They're turned down or ignored or made excuses to people a lot more notable than me too.

    The Furutech Demaga is a scam. Furutech should be ashamed of itself. Fremer and some of his peers buy into the voodoo and magic and promote it. Shame on them for misleading audiophiles into spending perfectly good money on garbagetech instead of a TIDAL Hifi subscription, LPs, CDs, and high-res music downloads to listen to more music more often on audio systems that are already amazingly good and that will not benefit in the slightest from any of the so-called cable tech and alleged LP demagnetizing.
     
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  17. Tullman

    Tullman Senior Member

    Location:
    Boston MA
    Barry Diament took up him up on his offer and Randi backed down.
     
  18. Agitater

    Agitater Forum Resident

    Location:
    Toronto
    Except that he didn't. Diament offered to do things Diament's way, so no thanks. What others described as James Randi trying to "rig" the tests ahead of time was merely Randi working with research lab rats to structure truly objective, double-blind tests. The million dollar challenge was clearly published for years and years, free to read for anyone who cared to do so. After thirty years or so, the challenge was finally retracted with not one single taker in all those years.

    Randi is 88 years old and retired a couple of years ago after a bout with cancer. Not one ESPer, homeopath, naturopath, cable peddler (much less Barry Diament), or anybody else with a questionable product ever stepped up to subject his/her product to truly objective, lab-based, double-blind testing. Diament was no exception.

    The James Randi Educational Foundation (JREF) is here.

    So many people insist that they can hear what the scammers are insisting the products are doing, but kick out and spread disinformation and refuse to sit down for a truly objective test when pressed to do so. My A/B/X switchbox flaked out on me a couple of months ago. When I took it to the repair shop I deal with, one of the owners asked me why I was still bothering with A/B/X blind testing. "Haven't you figured out the cable B.S. yet?" was the actual question. I had to tell him that most of the time, I was still doing it not to educate friends but to instead find out if maybe - just maybe - all of the science and technology and electrical theory and physics was somehow wrong and that one day - one amazing day - there would appear a magical speaker cable that could confer 'air' or 'weight' or 'ultimate balance' or any of the other indefinable superlatives wielded by reviewers. Thirty or forty cable test sessions later, I'm no longer looking. I'm too busy enjoying the music playing on various systems. Still, the box will be repaired before the end of the month. The Furutech Demaga is a $3,000 piece of utter nonsense.
     
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  19. tim185

    tim185 Forum Resident

    Location:
    Australia
    Errr. Why should a simple demag cost as much as $3000? Isn't that suss in itself?
     
  20. Agitater

    Agitater Forum Resident

    Location:
    Toronto
    Suss? Yes.
     
  21. Mr Bass

    Mr Bass Chevelle Ma Belle

    Location:
    Mid Atlantic

    They don't except from Furutech. You can buy industrial surface demagnetizers for prices between $50-300. They differ in their size and shape from the Furutech. To be fair to Furutech if they manufactured a different design from the standard then it would be more expensive because it only has one market as opposed to the general use of the standard design.
     
  22. Archimago

    Archimago Forum Resident

    @Nigel A. (couldn't help but notice new user with 2 posts):
    You said this:
    "Michael Fremer, is someone well known and respected by many within the professional audiovisual industry and writes for both ANALOGPLANET and STEREOPHILE magazines, both of which are well-respected industry publications..."

    and

    "And then there's this review in THE ABSOLUTE SOUND magazine, which is another very well respected publication as well, this time by author Jacob Heilbrunn, where highlights include:"

    You seem to use the word "respect" a lot in describing the magazines and those individuals. Yes, I would agree that they may be "well known" and their comments do carry weight among a certain groups of audiophiles. Just not sure whether the word "respect" is necessarily the right one to use if we were to poll audiophiles' feelings about these individuals and the weight they put on the magazines.

    @Agitater:
    Oooooh, bring on the blind test / debate / brawl, man! I'll happily fly out to Toronto, bring some popcorn and buy a round of drinks for the contestant(s) over dinner.

    Didn't see it mentioned, but check out this recent AnalogPlanet video from Fremer:
    In A Thai Vinyl Noodle Factory (TPC—Thai Plastic Company)

    He visits the Thai plastic company and trolls them about demagnetization. Guys at the plastic plant laughing looking like they're thinking: "WTF's up with this guy!?" (start at 12:45).

    They're much more comfortable talking about static charge obviously. "Metals is our enemy." And mental masturbation about "carbon black" being the significant factor cuz according to Fremer, demag makes no difference to clear vinyl as opposed to black vinyl... OK. Glad we got that straight :).
     
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  23. Claude Benshaul

    Claude Benshaul Forum Resident

    Fremer's test proved nothing beyond showing that digitizing a record twice will show differences, which I believe is something that doesn't require the involvement of magnetism.

    If he was serious and methodical his test would have been designed to eliminate any other possible variable or interference, then digitize the record several time, with or without demagnetization and only then analyze the results to see if the differences are statistically significant.

    He did nothing of this of course so his result is anecdotal at best and can as easily prove that the tide effect of the moon on the tonearm is causing audible differences when playing the same record at different hours of the day.
     
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  24. Nigel A.

    Nigel A. New Member

    Location:
    UK
    Agitater, you are clearly an intelligent fellow, so with the utmost respect, go and actually read my post properly… you should then (hopefully) realise that you are guilty of misconstruing what I have actually said! Where for example, you will note that in my original post I posted a quotation by Michael Fremer, which I did as a point of interest and a discussion point… I never stated I agreed with it. Where in fact from my subsequent post it is in fact clear that I am actually in the most part agreeing with you! [​IMG]

    Albeit, I am doing so in a considerably more polite, respectful and diplomatic than you, which is probably because I’m English ;) :D

    WOW… OK… Let’s make a deal… I won’t start make all sorts of factually inaccurate and incorrect sweeping statements regarding what you have said or done, and in return you will stop doing so with respect to me? OK? [​IMG]

    To facilitate matters here’s a summary of the key salient points quoted from my previous posts for you such that you can take 1 and 1 and make 2 instead of 13 ;-) :

    I agree with what you say

    Subjective information is only supportive and cannot be exclusively proof or definitively demonstrable of anything... and 95% of ^^^^ is purely subjective.

    What objective data do we have here? Well, it's basically this:

    (1) TULLMAN's daughter, a scientist, has confirmed that vinyl records do indeed hold magnetic charges

    (2) Michael Fremer reports that he digitized the same record both before and after 'demagnetizing' the record and the result waveforms differed; and

    (3) Furutech claims that its Demag device reduces the magnetic field of a vinyl record from circa 620-630 nT down to 572-582 nT.

    (4) A refridgerator magnet has a field of about 10,000,000 nT

    (5) The Earth's 'background' magnetic field ranges circa 25,000 - 65,000 nT

    • I don't believe that TULLMAN is making up stories, so let's all accept this as being true... Secondly, I am not prepared to call all of Michael Fremer, Jacob Heilbrunn, AnalogPlanet, StereoPhile, or The Absolute Sound magazine a bunch of liars, either... so let's all accept what is reported here as being true at least in the most part, as well... However, neither of these prove that these LP Demagnetizer devices improve the performance of vinyl records via demagnetizing them.

    NOTE: Items (1) - (3) above are hearsay. This does not matter! We don't need to argue over validity because we can simply accept these since they do not add any significance anyway! Let's accept that vinyl records hold a miniscule amount magnetic charge... which is what (1) and (3) allude to... So what? It's highly improbable indeed that this is significant enough to affect the playback performance of vinyl records...

    And let's accept that Michael Fremer digitized a record both before and after 'demagnetizing' the record... again, so what if he did? This does not tell us anything useful whatsoever, for obvious reasons, where we both know what these reasons are, so I don't need to tell you!

    • There are two influential aspects here, namely: (1) Whether these LP Demagnetizer devices improve the performance of vinyl records; and (2) Whether or not they do so via demagnetization.

    • Furutech has measured this as being circa 620-630 nT; wherein, it should be noted that this magnetic field strength is 0.006% the strength of that of a typical fridge magnet.

    • The reduction in magnetic field strength reported by Furutech represents a 7.62 - 7.74% reduction


    • Whilst the fact that the Earth's 'background' magnetic field ranges circa 25,000 - 65,000 nT… because it's a baseline commonality… what is in fact valid here is the difference between the comparative total magnetic field strengths... Namely 25,620 - 65,630 nT versus 25,572 - 65,582 nT; where the difference is 0.073 - 0.187%.

    • The most important questions that need answering here are whether or not a magnetic field strength which is 0.006% as compared with that of a typical fridge magnet is sufficient to influence the playback performance of vinyl records in the first place; and secondly, is a differential of 0.073 - 0.187% in magnetic field strength sufficient enough to cause a significant difference with respect to the playback performance of vinyl records?

    • The objective information ^^^^ … no blind subjective testing was carried out, nor elimination of the placebo effect, nor in fact were there any instances of repetition either, nor was there any elimination of variance or otherwise... Where really what's needed here is for all of these to occur.

    • Therefore, based upon what is at the present time an insufficient amount of information, I am unable to draw any conclusions… That said, it could be considered to be improbable that a differential of only 0.073 - 0.187% in magnetic field strength might significantly influence the playback performance of vinyl records

    We cannot make definitive conclusions that it is impossible that these demagnetizing devices have any effect on the playback of vinyl records, because we quite simply do not have sufficient evidence to irrefutably prove this.

    In order to draw the definitive conclusions that you are making we would need to conduct proper controlled placebo blind testing to disprove the existance of any effect. And counterwise the same would need to be done regards proving that there actually exists any effect.

    Therefore, as I have correctly stated, at the present time there is an insufficient amount of information to draw any definitive conclusions either way. So, at the present time we can only talk in terms of probabilities... Where I reiterate what I have already said, namely that it is highly improbable that a differential of only 0.073 - 0.187% in magnetic field strength is capable of significantly influencing the playback performance of vinyl records. Highly improbable indeed.

    That said, I am quite correct in pointing out that in the absence of definitive proof to the contrary it is not impossible that said devices do indeed affect the playback performance; especially considering the very small measurable differences with respect to cartridges, stylii, and tonearms etc. which yield profound differences with respect to playback performance. Where the probability might be very small indeed, but we cannot as of right now state or conclude it's impossible.

    You can by all means state that it's extremely improbable, which is what I have done and am doing. But you cannot state that it isn't the case or it's impossible or it's a scam, without first supplying the respective substantiating evidence to prove your conclusions, such as for example by carrying out appropriate placebo blind controlled testing... Which you haven't actually done have you? o_O

    Therefore, with the utmost respect, to make sweeping statements and definitive conclusions based upon insufficient evidence and incomplete information, whilst at the same time criticising those who support these vinyl-record-demagnetizing devices for doing precisely this is hypocrisy.

    And for what it’s worth, currently in my living room resides an audio system valued at over £100,000 and I am mid-process of designing an audio system valued at circa £1 million; the both of which feature standard cables and connectors… But please carry on :)
     
  25. Ken_McAlinden

    Ken_McAlinden MichiGort Staff

    Location:
    Livonia, MI
    From the forum rules:

    I'm debating whether to put the time in to cleaning up this thread or to leave it as a shining example of the thread derailing weirdly emotional and almost religious/political fervor O/S debate generates to illustrate why we have this rule.

    As a reminder, feel free to present subjective opinions as well as results of double blind tests, etc. Just don't start arguing about their relative merits vs. each other.
     

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