Anyone into 'BREAKING BAD'? (part 3)

Discussion in 'Visual Arts' started by MilesSmiles, Aug 12, 2013.

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  1. Raf

    Raf Senior Member

    Location:
    Toronto, Ontario
    I'll take any amount of idiotic commentary in this thread just to see kwadguy's replies. :D
     
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  2. rburly

    rburly Sitting comfortably with Item 9

    Location:
    Orlando
    I've heard Gilligan and some of the cast members talk about the ending. Gilligan gets asked specifically about whether the show will end like the Sopranos, and every time either he or the cast members answer it, he says there is a definitive ending. He says that he and the other writers wrote the finale with a specific ending that he was happy with. And again, he says that he doubts that the ending will make everyone happy, but not all fans. The point is that there's no ambiguity about what happens at the end.

    I'm one of those people who have enjoyed every episode and have no doubt I'll enjoy the next 7, which includes the ending. They've been masterful and so creative with writing (I never know what is going to happen, and am always surprised at what happens). I'll leave it to the "Post Breaking Bad" thread(s) to talk about the merits or problems with the show. It's these in-between shows discussions that have me craving the next episode. :)
     
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  3. acjetnut

    acjetnut Senior Member

    Location:
    USA

    Man do I disagree on The Sopranos ending. I recently watched the whole series for the first time, having previously seen a bunch of episodes but not all. I had seen the ending and read all about it also. With that in mind, there is so much foreshadowing leading up the the end, I don't believe it is vague at all. It is so jarring and sudden that you actually feel what Tony felt (blammo) - brilliant!

    The difference with Breaking Bad is that The Sopranos was told through Tony's experience. I believe Breaking Bad is much more of a third person comic book type story, so we will see the end from that perspective. When things ended for Tony, they ended for the viewer in the Sopranos.
     
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  4. Sean Murdock

    Sean Murdock Forum Intruder

    Location:
    Bergenfield, NJ
    Well, chad -- can I call you chad? -- it's clear that you're smart and well-spoken, and even educated in the art of screenwriting ... which is why I find your criticisms of Breaking Bad increasingly confounding. I'm going to try not to belabor my points, because clearly we're not going to see eye-to-eye on these things, but I have to address some of your arguments. Please bear with me.
    This is astounding to me. "Inability to write non-action?" Maybe you should pay more attention instead of "tuning out" whenever there isn't a gun or a fist onscreen. Many of the most riveting (and emotionally rewarding) scenes of the entire show don't involve "the crime stuff" -- examples that spring to mind are the "IFT" conversation between Walt and Skyler, their "I'm the one who knocks" and "What are you gonna do" arguments in their bedroom, Skyler's half-hearted suicide attempt in the pool, Hank and Marie's tender "I'm not the man I thought I was" heart-to-heart, Jesse's scenes with the little kid in "Peekaboo," Walt and Hank's tense "you got me" chat, Walt's drunken declaration that Hank hadn't caught the real Heisenberg, and dozens upon dozens of other scenes involving Walt and Jesse, Walt and Mike, and Gus and just about everyone. If you can't see the drama and the power of those scenes -- none of which contained a gun or a fist -- then I just don't know what else to say.
    The Skyler and Marie characters are in a box somewhat, because they are mainly there to react to their husbands and the situations they create, but I think both are fine actors and have had plenty of stand-out moments. Skyler's intense scenes with Walt are too many to mention, and if you think she's not capable of subtle acting, you should rewatch the "I f---ed Ted" scene or the hilarious dinner scene with Walt and Jesse -- you said you liked humor, right? -- and see the layers of sadness, anger, frustration, and desperation in her performance, much of it conveyed without the help of dialogue. I've already defended Marie at length in an earlier post, but in a nutshell, she's a minor character, yes, but she's critical to the show because she kept Hank grounded (and emotionally safe and loved) at a time when he could have gone off the deep end and "broken bad" himself. There's absolutely nothing wrong with her performance as an actor that I can ever recall harming a scene, and in fact, I think she's done quite a bit with the little she's given. Dean Norris has repeatedly praised her work and credited her as a partner for elevating his own acting in their heavy scenes.
    So ... everyone who DOES find deep, penetrating character study in Breaking Bad is just deluding themselves so they can enjoy some slick, violent fun? Insult noted.
    OK, if you can't recognize the brilliance of what Bryan Cranston has done with the Walt/Heisenberg character(s), then I should just throw up my hands and not even post this reply. (But I won't, of course, because I'm stubborn and want to defend my views, just as you do, so in a way I'm fascinated by your extreme contrarianism -- I just want to see you explain it better.) Personally, I have barely seen the stick up Walt's ass since he returned from his "fugue state" -- although he shows flashes of the old Walt occasionally, most recently when he impetuously shot Mike and he briefly panicked and did Walt's little nerd-run after Mike's runaway car. But honestly, if you can't at least celebrate one of the great singular acting performances in TV history -- I have to ask you why you're even watching the show.
    I find humor in virtually every episode -- and not just from Saul or Badger and Skinny Pete. There's dark humor running through the whole damn show, and to me, everything about Gilligan's writing and his show is the absolute antithesis of "banal."
    I'm not sure who these "groundlings" you're referring to are, but once you've dismissed every possible ending that involves Walt suffering somehow for his sins, what exactly do you WANT? What did you think of the Sopranos ending -- I'm genuinely curious, because you clearly love that show, and the ending was obviously polarizing. But I'm totally trusting Gilligan and Co. to stick the landing and give us an ending that's somehow apt (and therefore not entirely unexpected) yet still surprising and satisfying. But I obviously have more regard for Gillian's abilities than you do.
    Whew -- that's a relief! Let's see -- it's only HALF a great show, the actors all suck, the creator and showrunner is incapable of writing human drama, everything not involving drugs and crime is banal, and the show is doomed to end lamely ... damn, what would you say about the show if you DIDN'T like it?!
    Everyone has their own preferences and favorites, naturally, but I don't even think The Sopranos is the best show ever NOT counting Breaking Bad; for me, the best show I've ever seen was The Wire. But Breaking Bad is close -- damn close. I watched The Sopranos all the way through, and I "enjoyed" it -- probably as you are "enjoying" Breaking Bad even though you see it as deeply flawed. I thought the first season of The Sopranos was high art -- epic, intelligent storytelling on the small screen. But the thrilling promise of The Sopranos was -- for me, anyway -- "What would happen if a bad man tried to become a good man?" Tony has panic attacks, he yearns for those damn birds, he loves his kids -- he's a mobster who still has a sliver of soul left that hasn't been stamped out by the life he's deeply entrenched in. How can he get out? How can he ease his existential guilt? But the show never went anywhere with that, and by the time we got to Season Three or Four, it seemed to me -- again, as a big fan of the show -- that there would never be a payoff, there would never be any growth, and Tony would end the show as conflicted and as unrepentantly "bad" as he was when the show started. The scenes with Dr. Melfi -- which were the heart of the show at first -- began to scream out "contractual obligation!" by the latter seasons, because Lorraine Bracco was a cast member, and there was nothing else to do with her. But Tony never got anywhere with therapy, never really tried to quit the life, never really grew as a human being. I really should re-watch the show all the way through sometime and see if my feelings might change -- and this discussion has made me want to do that.

    Breaking Bad, on the other hand, is kind of the mirror image of The Sopranos -- "What if a good man became a BAD man?" And say what you want about the writing, the acting, the plotting, or whatever -- Breaking Bad HAS answered that question, in spades. How much more incredible could The Sopranos have been if David Chase really tried to have Tony quit the life and go "straight" -- fighting the malevolent forces that want him BACK (or dead) all the way. But Chase DIDN'T try that -- he settled for stasis, and Tony the Conflicted Mobster at the infamous cut-to-black was pretty much the same guy he was in the pilot. What Vince Gilligan did with Walter White was far more risky -- he made his protagonist so loathsome that fans either (a) had to stop rooting for him, or (b) had to ask themselves WHY they were still rooting for him. Gilligan himself admits that he hasn't liked Walt -- his own creation! -- for some time; I'm pretty sure David Chase loved Tony Soprano every step of the way.

    I was at a family dinner last week, and I was (again) trying to cajole my brother-in-law into watching Breaking Bad. He never watched it because he objected viscerally to the premise -- that a "good guy" would do something so heinous and destructive as selling meth. I told him that wasn't the point, that I had felt the same way, that we're not MEANT to love this guy who does bad things -- we're in fact meant to TURN on this guy and root against him just like any other TV villain. I went on and on about the writing, the directing, the acting, the cinematography, the camera angles, the symbolism, the attention to detail, etc. etc. etc. When he sensed a pause, he jumped in with, "Is it better than The Wire?" He had me stumped for a bit, because I do love The Wire, and it's almost unassailable on my personal list of Best Shows Ever. I started with the "apples and oranges" argument, but that seemed a little like a cop-out. Finally, I said, "The Wire is the best PROSE I've ever seen on TV, and Breaking Bad is the best POETRY I've ever seen on TV." That's probably the best I can do.
     
  5. d.r.cook

    d.r.cook Senior Member

    fortunately, it's not an "either/or" proposition, and i could easily make the case for either one at the top.

    the Wire, by nature of its settings and stories, had a more realistic feel but i don't know that that makes it inherently "better" . . . it was more complex and had MUCH MORE of a minority presence (Hispanic drug lords and henchmen not withstanding)

    Both, unfortunately, had a lot to do with the Wire's lack of commercial success.

    btw, Breaking Bad in the key 18-49 demo, out-performed NBC, ABC and CBS . . . COMBINED, this past sun. nite.

    remaining slots for ads in its closing episode Sun. Sept. 29 are expected to bring in the $200-300K, equal to top-end net shows, and virtually unheard of on cable.

    doug
     
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  6. vinyldreams

    vinyldreams Forum Resident

    Location:
    Main St.
    Marie and Walt Jr. are the only innocent main characters left, the ones who don't know what's going on with Walt. It will be interesting to see how they change if and when they do find out.
     
  7. Deuce66

    Deuce66 Senior Member

    Location:
    Canada
    his conscience is absolutely killing him, there's way too much negative baggage between the ears and after everything they've done there should be, he's a mess mentally
     
  8. Deuce66

    Deuce66 Senior Member

    Location:
    Canada
    agreed looks more like a couple of years at least
     
  9. ssmith3046

    ssmith3046 Forum Resident

    Location:
    Arizona desert
    On a happy note, it doesn't look like rain today in ABQ so I went the Octopus car wash on the way to Jiffy Lube this morning. They had new pictures up signed by the cast behind the counter and on a few walls. I've been going for years and they have never had anything up connecting them to the show. Maybe since filming is over they thought it would be appropriate. Have an A1 day :)
     
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  10. kwadguy

    kwadguy Senior Member

    Location:
    Cambridge, MA
    Did you happen to glance at the air freshener rack to see how they had it arranged?
     
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  11. ssmith3046

    ssmith3046 Forum Resident

    Location:
    Arizona desert
    Someone pointed out that it looked like Walt had picked up the gun at Dennys and then might have driven straight to the house to nab the poison since he was dressed the same. I wonder how long the house had been vacant at the time Walt bought the M60?
     
  12. ssmith3046

    ssmith3046 Forum Resident

    Location:
    Arizona desert
    Just as Walt had imagined.
     
  13. kwadguy

    kwadguy Senior Member

    Location:
    Cambridge, MA
    Good. Sounds like Skylar is holding up her end then.
     
  14. jriems

    jriems Audio Ojiisan

    My opinion:
    So the house has been vacant less than 8 months.
     
    Last edited: Aug 15, 2013
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  15. mikestar

    mikestar Friendly Optimist

    Location:
    Capitol Hill
    I do not visit any Breaking Bad discussion sites, nor am I caught up on this thread. So maybe I am repeating someone else's guess.

    I do believe that Walt Jr. will become a meth user, and I do believe that the baby will end up in the pool, perhaps when left in Walt Jr.'s care. Just picking up on some of the crumbs Gilligan has left for us.
     
  16. Driver 8

    Driver 8 Senior Member

    Meth zombies!
     
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  17. Bryan

    Bryan Starman Jr.

    Location:
    Berkeley, CA
    I really think it's way too late in the series for them to have Walt Jr. start using. It would be too sudden and it would be very ham-fisted, in my opinion.
     
  18. mj_patrick

    mj_patrick Senior Member

    Location:
    Elkhart, IN, USA
    What an opener!

    In season 2 they showed the stuffed animal, several times, which gave hints to the season finale. Are they doing it again in this season? Sure seems like it. Opened last season at the diner, this season he's in the same clothes and looks inside trunk at the gun & manual as a new owner might. I think these are teaser segments of the ending.

    Whether it was intentional or not, that stuffed animal also kinda foreshadowed Gus Fring's fate.

    I'm wondering if something will happen to Walt's family as a result of his own actions. He has killed too many people, many of them drug lords.

    I think Jesse will eventually learn what happened to Mike, and possibly who poisoned his girlfriend's son with the ricin. It may come down to a showdown between Jesse and Walt.

    This show is like crack for me (I know, how appropriate!).
     
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  19. vinyldreams

    vinyldreams Forum Resident

    Location:
    Main St.
    Very plausible, but I think that Hank and Jessie are going to have a bigger involvement in how the story ends and it won't just be a showdown between Walt and Declan (who is still a minor character at this point, but I am sure we haven't seen the last of him.)
     
  20. Classicolin

    Classicolin ‘60s/‘70s Rock Fanatic/Crown Kingdom Guitarist

    Location:
    Ohio
    I think Declan might very well be the show's main villain. Maybe Lydia will simply be a 'curveball" or "false target" of sorts (We think Lydia is going to cause trouble for Walt, when it really might be Declan).
     
  21. Classicolin

    Classicolin ‘60s/‘70s Rock Fanatic/Crown Kingdom Guitarist

    Location:
    Ohio
    My friend and I have a theory that all this talk about a Saul spin-off might be a ruse to effect viewer shock when he gets killed off in one of these final 8 episodes (seeing as he's the least likely to die, cockroach that he is, spin-off talk notwithstanding). Thoughts?
     
  22. D Schnozzman

    D Schnozzman Forum Resident

    Location:
    Sydney, Australia
    I doubt whether many viewers are emotionally invested enough in Saul to be shocked if he bit the big one.
    I seem to recall reading that the Saul spinoff could possibly be a prequel, to cover the eventuality of his demise.
     
  23. ssmith3046

    ssmith3046 Forum Resident

    Location:
    Arizona desert
    Not Saul, anyone but Saul.
     
  24. kwadguy

    kwadguy Senior Member

    Location:
    Cambridge, MA
    I hope Saul survives to live another show...But, please, let it be better than Beverly Hills Buntz.
     
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  25. D Schnozzman

    D Schnozzman Forum Resident

    Location:
    Sydney, Australia
    :laugh: I stand corrected.
     
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