Apple M1/M2 Mini users with DAC's, Sample rates and Quality Impressions

Discussion in 'Audio Hardware' started by fish, Jan 25, 2023.

  1. fish

    fish Senior Member Thread Starter

    Location:
    NYS, USA
    Im reading all sorts of negative and mixed comments from Audiophiles that switched from Intel based Mac's (mini's in particular) to the new ARM M1 (and now M2) silicon.

    There seems to be the same inherent 48KHz limitations the AppleTV's and other devices have, certainly over HDMI. And apparently its internal DAC as well.

    I cant find many straight answers or comments in regard to using the M1/M2 Mini's with off-board DAC, specifically using USB.

    Lots of musicians and producers are claiming the Audio Quality of the new M1's is significantly less than the Intel variants. Thats sad and scary if its true.
    Pro Tools made this comment recently "...All of this is pointing to the conclusion that these M1 Arm-based Apple Silicon Macs are entry-level machines and may not be powerful enough for pro audio and video applications. This could well be why Apple has not discounted the Intel-powered Mac minis and MacBook Pro laptops..."

    Some are claiming that higher sample rates above 48KHz are simply not available as it was on Intel based machines. Im cant get definitive answers are to how they are routing their signals and what hardware they are using.

    WHO here is using a new M1 Apple computer with a DAC via USB? Are you getting proper sample rate output from it?
     
  2. DyersEve726

    DyersEve726 Schmo Diggy

    Location:
    Michigan, USA
    This sounds like hogwash to me. The Apple silicon blows away the older Intel models by a mile. Seriously, I can't throw enough plugins at it to make it even work hard. My old machines used to scream for mercy. I use an M1 mini connected via Thunderbolt to an Apollo TwinX. Capture and playback quality is perfect. Able to play back and record at all advertised rates. Guess I can't speak to USB, but I don't see how the Apple silicon would hold it back. It's a beast.
     
  3. Absolutely agree. My M1 Max Mac is infinitely better than my previous Intel Mac. No issues using multiple plug-ins, latency isn’t even remotely an issue and audio quality is excellent (both in to and out from the Mac). Others on recording-specific forums seem to agree, and many are clamoring for the hold-out audio companies to update their software to be Apple-silicon compliant.
     
    SamS, Billy Infinity, snorker and 2 others like this.
  4. DyersEve726

    DyersEve726 Schmo Diggy

    Location:
    Michigan, USA
    You can even hear the TwinX switching when changing formats when used in exclusive mode for Roon. Roon shows a clean, lossless path. No issues at all.
     
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  5. fish

    fish Senior Member Thread Starter

    Location:
    NYS, USA
    NOT talking about performance. Im talking about Audio Quality.

    Read the comments online from audio pros in regard to sample rate limitations and some being stuck at 48. This appears to be when using the internal DAC.
    I want first had examples of an Audiophile using a Mac M1 mini connected to a USB DAC and are able to properly run any sample rate they want and achieve positive results using Roon or other Audio Players.


    Here is 1 example I was just reading:

    “...I'm running into a similar problem with my brand new M1 pro MacBook Pro. I am a Logic Pro x "Audio Engineer/recording artist". I use a Denon Amplifier working with my Monitors and subwoofer connected through HDMI and I am not able to adjust my audio sampling rate as needed for my Logic sessions. It is locked in at 48kHz, and I need it at 44.1. On my 2017 intel MacBook Air I've never ran into this problem because It switched the sampling rate automatically and was able to change it with ease. Please let me know if there is any solution or workaround to my problem. It may be a deal breaker on whether I'm keeping this beast or not...”

    Another: Mac mini M1 - only 48KHz audio?
     
  6. Adding, that quote you reference isn’t from ProTools but is from an online website and the article is from 2020. And I think (?) published before the M1 chips were even out. Here’s a more-current article from the same web site recommending those with a Mac Intel chip to get the new M2 chip:

    New M2 MacBook Pro Computers - We Compare Them With the M1 Versions | Production Expert
     
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  7. DyersEve726

    DyersEve726 Schmo Diggy

    Location:
    Michigan, USA
    The above example is not using the internal DAC. It is being sent digitally over HDMI to the Denon, which is the DAC. I can't speak to the sample rates over HDMI. Actual audio engineers aren't going to connect their studio monitors through a low end receiver (or really anything via HDMI), so to say that's a reason the M1 shouldn't be used for pro audio is ridiculous. Every pro audio interface since a long time ago is either USB or Thunderbolt. If you're worried about USB, I have a Steinberg USB interface that I can test with, but I'm pretty confident it will work as the TwinX does.

    BTW, I responded regarding performance because of this quote in your OP, which I found to be outrageously false.

    "All of this is pointing to the conclusion that these M1 Arm-based Apple Silicon Macs are entry-level machines and may not be powerful enough for pro audio and video applications."

    It's just not even close to true.
     
    Last edited: Jan 25, 2023
    bdfin, Billy Infinity, fish and 2 others like this.
  8. Kray

    Kray Sleuthing

    Location:
    Sarasota
    You're pointing to a corner case of HDMI output with Apple Music lossless files...

    Here is DAC connected to M1 Mini via USB. No issues with any bitrates (my DAC is NOS R2R and only supports 16 or 32)

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]
     
  9. jbmcb

    jbmcb Forum Resident

    Location:
    Troy, MI, USA
    I've heard professional audio engineers complain initially, mainly because the drivers for the Thunderbolt audio interfaces they were using weren't quite ironed out yet. As the new Macs use a completely new CPU architecture, all the hardware drivers have to be rebuilt. Since the operating system itself isn't that different it's not a huge task, but there are always issues moving from one CPU architecture to another. From the Youtube videos I watch, most problems have been fixed by now.
     
    fish likes this.
  10. fish

    fish Senior Member Thread Starter

    Location:
    NYS, USA
    You Guys are Awesome!!

    Thank you.

    So much miss-information out there and like I said, just couldn't find any straight or logical answer.
    Just lots of complaints that I didn't expect or see why that would be.

    Im close to dropping $1600 or more on a new M2 Mini for my system, Roon server and some video/TV.
    Replacing an 10 year old i7 model.

    See, spent an hour or two reading online to confusion and you guys come through in 15 min!
    Tell the bartender the next rounds on me :-D

    :righton:
     
    Michael Macrone, Kray and Shawn like this.
  11. fish

    fish Senior Member Thread Starter

    Location:
    NYS, USA
    Again, Thanks!

    What did you replace with the M1 mini?

    Ive been very happy with the sound quality of a late 2012 i7 with 16gb ram and 1 TB SSD I put in. But its old and the video quality is not as great as Id like.
    I also had a i5 mini and a Few Hackintoshes I built over the last 10 years.

    The Mac Mini i7 just sounded Better than Any other computer i tried. MacOS or Windows.

    Im afraid of buying a new M2 Mini and being disappointed with the Audio Quality.

    I run Roon Core into a Denafrips Terminator via USB.
     
  12. DyersEve726

    DyersEve726 Schmo Diggy

    Location:
    Michigan, USA
    You'll love it. They're so powerful and so high efficiency. It's dead quiet. Fan never turns on.

    I know it sounds crazy, but in most cases the M1 beats the absolute pants off of any mobile i7 and most desktop i7's, all while using significantly less power. I'm honestly not an Apple fan boy. I own exactly one Apple product specifically for recording. I've also built i5 and i7 Hackintoshes. My M1 mini beats them all easily. The M2 will be crazy. Apple silicon really is a game changer. Between AMD and Apple, Intel must be panicking.
     
  13. fish

    fish Senior Member Thread Starter

    Location:
    NYS, USA
    Im glad to hear that.

    Why the F is this guy running HDMI out to a Denon to his monitors???

    When I did more audio and video editing on PC's in the past, I used an off-board DAC via USB to a pair of KRK V8-S2's. The Internal DAC was always too nosey.
    And some times I also used a Mac Mini and a MacBook Pro and found its internal DAC was quite and just fine to a pair of KRK Rokit 8's. But that was down and dirty, on location work.

    Had some colleagues send me negative press on the M1 and M2's recently and then started reading more negativity online I wasn't expecting!
    Right at the time Im about to buy a new M1 Mini and Im ALSO considering buying a Mac Studio with a M1 Max for $2600 to replace my trusty hackintosh workhorse.

    Thanks!
     
    DyersEve726 likes this.
  14. Kray

    Kray Sleuthing

    Location:
    Sarasota
    @fish I had the 2012 i5 Mini, which my dad has now... and it's that time of season.. I just purchased the new M2 Pro and my dad will be replacing the 2012 with my M1

    I've moved everything off my Mac for audio... but I had Roon Core on the M1 (Roon recently upgraded Roon to support arm64 (Apple Silicon/M1/M2/etc), just a couple months ago it was still 'intel'
    running thru rosetta :thumbsdow)

    Pro tip. If you use an external device like iPad or iPhone, etc to control Roon. you can install Roon Server (not Roon Core) on your Mac. it's purely the backend framework to manage everything with no "GUI", you then use your device Roon app to play like normal. On the other hand Roon Core on Mac includes both server and GUI application. RC takes up way more resources.

    This might help too: Mac Mini vs. Mac Studio Buyer's Guide
     
  15. zed

    zed Forum Resident

    Location:
    Dallas
    If you can detect the sonic differences from 24-48 to 24-192 or 24-96 on exact recordings I’m amazed. It’s similar to people all the sudden hearing differences in DSD and pure analog on MoFi releases. Good for you!
     
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  16. tryitfirst

    tryitfirst supatrac.com

    Location:
    UK
    I replaced an Intel MacBook Pro with an M1 (the M2 had no SD card slot!). It's the biggest leap in real usable speed since the AIM G3s came out.

    The comment about M1 not being pro-level has definitely come from enemy marketing. It's blistering fast. They seed stories like that when they're scared.
     
  17. Kray

    Kray Sleuthing

    Location:
    Sarasota
    I totally agree, but I would also want the native bitrate sent to my DAC... wouldn't want the source converting everything to one thing, then sending that...
     
    zed and timind like this.
  18. fish

    fish Senior Member Thread Starter

    Location:
    NYS, USA
    Apple is no longer selling the M1 Mini. it was replaced with M2 Mini and the M2 Pro Mini


    My homework shows this. makes it a hard decision.

    For an Audiophile Music Source (Roon Core or similar), File Storage, Video Browser streaming (Netflix, YouTube, Amazon...), some gaming now and then.
    USB to DAC connection
    HDMI to 4K TV, 120Hz video with USB audio.

    Im using a 2012 i7 Mini, 16GB mem, 1 TB SSD with an external 2TB SSD drive I use with a AQ carbon USB cable. Using it as described above.
    My OS is limited to Catalina (OSX) and my video is limited to HD, my Sony 4K TV upsamples video to 4K nicely but id like the mini to output 4K. Primary Reasons why i want to upgrade.

    It would be nice to have a large 2-4 TBs of SSD storage in a Mini or Studio.
    For the majority of the music i listen to often a 2TB SSD would be enough while I continue to use an additional external 2TB SSD drive I have for everything else.
    4TB SSD would remove the external drive and its PSU out of the system which is best.
    But Apple wants ALLOT more money for the extra SSD space. Its VERY Fast storage memory, faster than regular SSD drives but its pricey.


    M2, 8-16-24MB mem
    8 core CPU, 10/10 core GPU

    M2 Pro, 16-32MB mem
    10 core CPU, 16/16 core GPU
    12 core CPU, 19/16 core GPU

    THEN there is the M1 Studio-Pro models. That is a serious Production Machine for Artists, Audio and Video Editors.
    They are using the M1 Max and Ultra in 4 variants. These are NOT Mac Mini's. Ground power, faster buss. 6K

    M1 Max Studio, 32-64MB mem
    10 core CPU, 24/16 core GPU
    12 core CPU, 32/16 core GPU

    M1 Ultra Studio, 64-128MB mem
    20 core CPU, 48/32 core GPU
    20 core CPU, 64/32 core GPU



    A Mini M2
    16MB mem, 8 core CPU, 10/10 core GPU
    1 TB SSD $1200
    2 TB SSD $1600

    A Mini M2 Pro
    16MB mem, base 10 core CPU, 16/16 core GPU
    1 TB SSD $1500
    2 TB SSD $1900

    A Mini M2 Pro
    32MB mem, base 10 core CPU, 19/16 core GPU
    1 TB SSD $2200
    2 TB SSD $2600
    4 TB SSD $3200
    8 TB SSD $4400

    A Studio M1 Max
    32MB mem, 10 core CPU, 24/16 core GPU
    1 TB SSD $2200
    2 TB SSD $2600
    4 TB SSD $3200
    8 TB SSD $4400

    A Studio M1 Ultra
    64MB mem, 20 core CPU, 48/32 core GPU
    1 TB SSD $4000
    2 TB SSD $4400
    4 TB SSD $5000
    8 TB SSD $6200

    A Studio M1 Ultra
    64MB mem, 20 core CPU, 64/32 core GPU
    8 TB SSD $8000
     
  19. DyersEve726

    DyersEve726 Schmo Diggy

    Location:
    Michigan, USA
    The cost isn't worth it at all for music storage. I'd get the largest size you think you'll actually need for apps and projects and use a bus powered external SSD for general music storage. No power supply needed.
     
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  20. fish

    fish Senior Member Thread Starter

    Location:
    NYS, USA
    I hear ya!! But im a audiophile lunatic at times, I have a problem. Just not as bad as others, that helps a little.

    This is where I ended up because everything sounded different and this is what had acceptable compromises. Not expensive.
    Sounds better that the stock or "Staples Store" USB and Network cabling for sure. Lots better. I was shocked how much power cords on the Mac Mini changed the sound.

    Audioquest Cinnamon USB ($100) Mini to SSD enclosure which has I separate 5V power source. Cleaner USB signal achieved. Quieter, lower floor with it. Ive tried many.
    Audioquest Carbon USB ($200) Mini to DAC cable
    Audioquest - RJ/E Cinnamon Ethernet ($170) Node to Mini cable
    K Works Igor Kuznetsoff's power cord ($250)for Mini
    5V Apple Wart for SSD enclosure for a High Performance SSD drive. They draw too much voltage for a shared port. It needs a separate power supply.

    I put a 1 TB SSD in the i7 and its only enough for the HiRes Audio files I have (higher than CD), the rest is AIFF mostly. 2TB. Thats not all of it but its enough to have locally. I honestly like Tidal and Qobus and the local files are only a little better...

    Up the ladder!

    Mini M2 Pro 16MB, 10 core CPU, 16 core GPU
    1 TB SSD $1500
    2 TB SSD $1900

    Studio M1 Max 32MB, 10 core CPU, 24 core GPU
    1 TB SSD $2200
    2 TB SSD $2600
     
  21. DyersEve726

    DyersEve726 Schmo Diggy

    Location:
    Michigan, USA
    Welp, you lost me here. I'm already skeptical of power cords making a difference on actual audio gear. I can't swallow a computer power cord making any difference. I also don't believe the USB cable between the computer and the SSD could possibly make a difference. USB cable to a DAC...maybe. But to the drive? That's a bridge too far for me :laugh: I won't participate in this convo any longer if we're headed down that path, haha. Been nice chatting man. Have a good one.
     
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  22. Kray

    Kray Sleuthing

    Location:
    Sarasota
    I think you’re overthinking this. Unless you do 4k video editing/processing, a Pro or Studio is overkill.

    Just do a M2, 16gb ram, 1tb/2TB SSD, and be done. Add a thunderbolt 4 external 2/4tb SSD (bus powered, no need for power brick)
     
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  23. tryitfirst

    tryitfirst supatrac.com

    Location:
    UK
    My wife's M1 MacBook Air is really fast for about a minute of real work after which it goes into some sort of heat protection mode and you might as well have an Intel. The fan in the M pro laptops makes them about five times faster for any sustained data-crunching. Don't try volume video or raw file editing on an Air. Otherwise you can't go wrong.

    None of this applies to music replay. Macs have been too fast for music replay for two or three decades.
     
  24. DyersEve726

    DyersEve726 Schmo Diggy

    Location:
    Michigan, USA
    There's probably something wrong with your Mac. My nephew has a standard M1 MacBook Air and we used that thing for relatively intense recording sessions until he busted the screen. That thing is the reason I bought my mini in the first place. It was so impressive.
     
    Shawn likes this.
  25. tryitfirst

    tryitfirst supatrac.com

    Location:
    UK
    I'm not sure recording is very intensive. Most modern machines would regard that as just about idling. When you use a multi-threaded raw image batch processor on thousands of 50 megapixel files you see all the cores maxed out. That's when I found the M1 Air slowed to a trudge. That kind of use gets the M1 pro fan going in about a minute. I think it would be pretty hard to do that while recording. Maybe applying effects to a lot of long recorded tracks would get you there. Did you keep an eye on parallel core usage to see if you were pushing the M1 hard?
     

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