Great point! There are reasons why some folks feel there has to be a definitive call, but there aren't really any good reasons for that IMHO. We all have our own opinions, but the one thing no one can control is the overall consensus that emerges from the group as a whole. And there's a pretty clear consensus here - not just from agreement but also from all the disagreement - that Zep on CD is just one of those catalogues that's a mixed bag. There are relatively few people here who insist that one of the mastering rounds (Diament/Sidore, Marino, Davis) is uniformly and massively superior to the other two. And the nasty tone and overstated claims of those who do make such a blanket argument reinforces (IMHO) the validity of the broad consensus that it's a mixed bag and not either-or. Also, maybe a little perspective: like many folks in this thread, I own multiple masterings on CD of every Zep album, all three masterings for most of them. And that entire collection can be had on the used market for a combined cost well below that of a single VG+ copy of the Ludwig Zep II LP, and equal to or less than a single Super Deluxe edition of any of their studio or live albums. Finally, in threads all over this forum, people write in positive ways about the pleasure of collecting multiple pressings and masterings of albums by their favorite artists. With the Zep catalogue we're actually pretty fortunate - there aren't 6, 7, or 10 different reissues/masterings to sort through and argue over, and there are few if any truly bad masterings. So why not embrace the fun of it - especially when you can get pretty much any Zep CD mastering of any album on the used market for $10 or less?
They were remastered in 1990. They were not remastered again in '93. What second box set in 1993 are you referring to? I have the 6 LP box from '90 (didn't have a CD player yet), and the Complete Studio Recordings with all the albums from '93. The 1990 vinyl is very nice - I'm pleasantly surprised every time I pull one of the LPs and listen. The '93 box was my go-to for years. Never had a problem with it. I was vinyl and cassette 'til 1992. Didn't buy any of the Diament Zeppelin CDs. Didn't care. I get the love for the Diaments here. Is there any hard evidence Barry had master tapes for his CDs? He did use some gentle EQ. I absolutely love his CD of Bob Marley and The Wailers Live! It's fantastic. But Barry had no contact with Jimmy Page in the process of his work on the Zeppelin CDs, did he? If people didn't have the ability to rip the files and *look* at them, none of these discussions would be happening. That's really what it's all about. If all everybody had was their ears, these threads would either not exist at all, or there would be far fewer of them.
Shirley really messed up by engaging in revisionist history. He put a phase shifter on Jimmy's Stairway intro. Jimmy always played it clean, with no effects, in every single live version of the song. Shirley slapped a harmonizer on the Theremin, which isn't the way audiences heard it in the '70s. Worst of all, he made ham-handed attempts to edit the soundtrack to match the film, which, first of all, is impossible, and second, Zeppelin couldn't touch the film anyway, so the content of the original soundtrack should have been left alone. The Caveman's basic mix is fine, as is Bob Ludwig's mastering. The extra tracks sound great. But the flow of Eddie Kramer's original 1976 mix was destroyed, particularly No Quarter and Celebration Day.
I just listened to the latest remastered Houses Of The Holy and it sounded fantastic. It sounds great on my stereo.
I have it on vinyl and like it a lot. I got sick of trying to find an original or near copy that didn't crackle through the quiet parts, especially No Quarter, so this latest pressing was very welcome.
I don't look at any computer analysis. I go by my ears which is simple common sense. I just bought the Davis remaster of Out Door and I hate it. Don't even like it on my car stereo. The Diaments and first remasters sound decent.
I have an original Ludwig vinyl that sounds great, but it crackles also. This sounds like a problem with the older pressings. This album is a great candidate to purchase new and hopefully noise free.
I had an original UK and the sound is fantastic on it. I don't think it's pressed crackly, but finding any original Zep albums that haven't been played a lot is very difficult.
- the Davis and Marino CDs have summed bass - the channel separation is wider on the Diament - in the fades between tracks, the Diament switches to blank leader (indicating a 1st gen assembled master) where the Davis and Marino have tape hiss at those points (indicating a single continuous tape, i.e. a dub) - a photo of a tape box dated after the album release is pictured in the super deluxe book, whereas Eddie Kramer posted a photo of the original tape assembly (dated much earlier) on his Facebook page - the noise floor is lower on the Diament and there are less tape flaws. None of these points are speculation.
All in all I prefer lots of albums from the 80s where it may not be a first gen master tape transfer over new remasters from the masters themselves, because the EQ choices agree with me more. And I believe the same applies to anything including the inverse, to me I just pick whatever sounds best to my ears and which has the EQ and treatment that I find most enjoyable. I find all opinions of preference equally valid when it comes to which masterings one might like more whether it is the Davis masterings, Diament, or in my case a mix and match between the two
I made a mistake based on the date on the box. Relax. I am not perfect. The second box set was released in 1993. My mistake I thought they were remastered that year as well. Either way that is not my point. To me the songs off of the first box set do not sound good. They are lacking detail and top end. The songs off the second one don't sound like that at all. A lot changed in the mastering of CD from 1990 to 1993. I am not talking about the individual albums or the vinyl that was remastered in 1990. I am talking about the two box sets released 1990 and 1993. It is possible through screw up a digital editor, bad transfers or whatever for the songs off of a box set to sound inferior to the individual album CDs. It happens in the industry all the time. Example: These things happen. ELO"s, "Out Of The Blue" released in the mid 80's. I owned it. It sounded just like the record. The songs from "Out Of The Blue" off of AFTERGLOW just done 4 years later sounded like garbage. The digital copies and the digital safeties were done and finished. The same copies for the album and yet they sound different. Why? I don't know. Don't ask me I am not a technician.
I am not sure about the chronology of the 1990 Marino/Page remasters. The first 4cd and the 6 lp set came out together I think and sold really well I believe. Warners then asked Page/Marino to remaster the remaining tracks and they became the second 2cd box ( was there was a vinyl of that?). In 1993 the complete remastered albums - that grey box thing with the black card sleeves- was released with the 4 bonus tracks on the earlier sets put at the end of the coda cd. I am assuming all 3 sets are the same in terms of mastering ie each track/song was only remastered once so anything on the 1993 albums box set is identical to its version on the 4cd set. Is that correct? Re the 80's cds. The only Zep one I do not have is Coda. I think this is a Barry Diament remaster. Worth getting if I can find one and are the USA, West Germany and Japan versions all the same?
Thanks. Why did they wait three years to put out the 2 CD second set? The idea was with both sets you would have every song. So were the tracks on ELO's 1990 AFTERGLOW. All those songs were transfered to digital in 1986. This is when the albums on CD came out. If they had remastered them again for better sound quality then AFTERGLOW would not have sounded so bad. It is the reason why I reject the idea. The process of mastering digital in 1990 is not the same today. There were not perfect files sitting on a computer ready to be dragged into a CD master window. You had to shovel hot coal into the 1610. And if the pressure built it could explode sending 0's and 1's everywhere.
I checked Discogs and Wiki. First 4 cd box September 1990 and Box Set 2 September 1993 as was the Complete Studio Recordings (10cd albums set). That is why I think the mastering was not all done at the same time. Hopefully someone on SHF will clarify if that is all wrong.
Hey cool! You transitioned to compact discs around the same time and for the same reasons as I. CDs quickly became the dominant audio media format for good reason. Thank you for sharing these samples. Even with an (queue laughter) Apple iPad paired with Beats EP headphones, the volume and tonal variations are immediately apparent. The Diamemt sample sounds warm, natural, and balanced from bottom to top whereas the 2014 sample is noticeably louder, brighter and the vocals are more aggressive and nip uncomfortably at my ears when played at louder volumes. Any differences beyond volume and EQ I cannot detect, but I definitely prefer the Diamemt version.
My pleasure . It's nice to get a 'thanks' every now and then when I post samples. Oh, and I agree with your assessment Radio
Something went way wrong with Afterglow. Either noise reduction or they accidentally Dolby'd them. It's happened before. Going by memory only- supposedly they were fixed in later manufactures. Only the first run had issues.
Does this mean you have some hearing damage that is agitated when hearing certain frequencies? And you simply prefer the version that doesn't have as much of those frequencies? Or merely a preference for less high frequencies for the sake of less high frequencies?
I suppose what you’re suggesting with your first question is possible. If some prefer the brighter sound of the 2014 remaster, then so be it. I was simply stating my observations about the two samples and how I find the 2014 one’s brightness uncomfortable to me. It’s my opinion that the Diament remasters are more faithful to the original LPs, that is they possess a higher degree of fidelity (HI-FI) than the recent remasters.
My preferences are for making it sound as close to what it would sound like in person, so I tend to find them all lacking in both low frequencies and high. Cymbals should sound like cymbals, not cymbals in the other room with the door closed, for example. The EQ differences among all of the masters are relatively small, in my opinion, so I always find it interesting when people think they're rather large differences. Some even report the opposite of what is actually the case, such as more bass when there's actually less. Makes me wonder about playback equipment and setup.
Live cymbals are harsh and in-your-face close up, more integrated and full-bodied 30-40 feet away. Bonham's studio cymbal sound seems compressed to some degree throughout Zep's catalog. They sit a little behind the band, not harsh at all. It's a pleasing sound. Bonzo's choice of Paiste Giant Beats and 2002's were perfect for Zeppelin music. If you want to hear what not to do with cymbals on a Led Zeppelin recording, listen to Celebration Day. Wrong cymbals, for starters, and way too out in front of the music.
Just my 2 cents... I've been following this thread and started to wonder if the reason I have rarely played Led Zeppelin since my early 20's (mid 90's) was because of all this remastering. I had rationalized it as the type of music that appeals mostly to young men, and that I had simply outgrown LZ... much like I'd outgrown Jim Morrison's "lizard king" posturing in the Doors. Well, I've recently rediscovered the Doors and consequently re-appreciated them, (although I still do find Morrison kind of ridiculous, but hey--it's all showbiz.) So I decided to seek out those Diament masters that everyone has been talking so much about, started playing them on my car stereo, and... I'm actually enjoying Zeppelin again. It had seemed counterintuitive to me that CD's from the late 80's could sound better than the latest remasters, but for years I had resisted "cranking up" LZ in my car and never even considered that the harshness of the remastering could be the problem... I always needed to keep the volume at a middle-level, and that's just not appropriate for a band like LZ, (at least not for me.) Now keep in mind, we're talking about a fairly high-end car stereo here, which is mainly how I listen to music. I gave up my home stereo system years ago. But my car listening experience has definitely been enhanced by switching to Diament.
It’s one of the reasons I love the cymbal and drum sound on Zep II, due to how they miked the drums. I read that other than the bass drum, nothing was miked directly, even the snare was picked up by overhead. I think Bonzo’s snare on Zep II sounds awesome, so warm and full body, because it was wasn’t miked up close. I’m not sure about the other albums, but II owes it’s sound to a different approach on how to Mike the drums.
