Yes, you're basically correct. My understanding is that George Marino did 16-bit, 44.1kHz digital transfers of the Zep analogue tapes (most, though maybe not all of them master tapes) in early 1990. He then mastered them for the original 4-CD (and 6-LP) Crop Circles box that came out later in 1990, which contained (if memory serves) 40 tracks. Then, when the 10-CD studio albums box came out in 1993, followed by the identical (as far as I know) individual album CDs in 1994, there was some tweaking done, by Marino, to the original Marino masters. If you compare tracks on the 1990 Crop Circles box to the same tracks on the 1993/94 album CDs, some levels have been adjusted - most tracks are level-shifted upwards by 1.4dB, although some are turned down and others are shifted up by different amounts. This appears to be mainly because of changes in the running order: A Zep IV track like Going to California is blended volume-wise with similar acoustic tracks from Zep III on the Crop Circles box, where all those tracks are grouped together. But on the Zep IV CD, Going to California is level-adjusted to play at a volume that Page (and I guess Marino) thought was appropriate after Four Sticks and before When the Levee Breaks. In some cases there also has been some kind of compression and/or EQ applied, because with some tracks even when you adjust the RMS level, the peak levels are still different between the Crop Circles version and the 1993/94 version - in other words they are different masterings, however slightly. The Battle of Evermore comes to mind in this regard: one of the versions has both a lower RMS (average) volume level, and higher peak levels than the other (I believe the Crop Circles version is the one with the lower RMS and higher peaks, but am not 100% certain). In addition, if memory serves, I believe there also were a couple/few tracks that were remastered entirely - these were tracks that cross-faded or segued with other tracks on the original albums but were separated out from that sequence on the Crop Circles box, or vice-versa - so for example the Moby Dick/Bonzo's Montreux mashup that's unique to the 1990 Crop Circles box; and (I think) Your Time is Gonna Come/Black Mountain Side from Zep I (though I could be thinking of a different song pairing than that - but you get the idea). Finally, that leaves Box Set 2, which came out in 1993 and contained all the tracks not on the Crop Circles box. It would stand to reason that since this set came out the same year as the studio albums box, it would contain the identical masterings for those tracks. However, I have compared the one Zep IV track on Box Set 2 with its counterpart on the 1994 Zep IV Marino CD, and if memory serves they are not 100% identical. So my guess would be that the Box Set 2 tracks where mastered back in 1990 and put on the shelf until Box Set 2 came out - and then those tracks were tweaked/re-remastered again in 1993, just like the original 40 Crop Circles tracks. One related note: the early 2000s "Definitive Collection" Japan/Rhino box is bit-for-bit identical on the studio album tracks to the 1993/94 Marino CDs, except the tracks are level-shifted up by an additional 0.6dB.
I prefer the Diament 80's CD's to the latest vinyl releases. Smoother and you can crank them without the bright harshness.
You think cymbals sound harsh. I think cymbals sound like cymbals. I play guitar and drums, so I'm quite used to how they sound when playing them and when being in the same room, not to mention having been to countless shows by all kinds of bands in venues of all sizes. I know what they sound like in person. And I feel recordings of them should sound similar to hearing them in person. Accurate recordings are a good thing. Someone might choose to intentionally make a recording sound different than the original sound, naturally. But I figure when that isn't the artistic goal, the recording should sound as accurate as possible. And I EQ the crap out of all my rock music so it actually sounds like a band sounds. You'd hate it. hehe edit: I tend to grab the Tweekend CD by The Crystal Method and use this track as a source to EQ all my rock music. Guaranteed it is going to have way more bass and high end than you will like. But in my opinion it makes every recording from Aerosmith to ZZ Top sound way better. (No, you won't like it, haha.)
A minor point, but did Marino do the transfers, or someone at Atlantic? I thought it was mentioned that they were done by someone at Atlantic, but perhaps I’m misremembering.
No, really, you won't like it at all. (But I do.) Sample: Dropbox - Led Zeppelin - 01 - Immigrant Song - EQ sample.flac - Simplify your life
That's how I felt about the Davis remasters. They're not bad but I had EQ some of treble because of the bright, harshness of the songs.
Around the time of the Crop Circles box, Guitar World had an interview with Page and a separate interview with Marino where - and I'm relying on my memory for this as well - Marino said "the first thing we did was transfer all the tapes to digital, to get one clean pass" or something along those lines. Now who the "we" was I don't know, but you would think George was involved. I wish I had kept that magazine as it was a good little interview with Marino where he shed some light on how he approached the project.
Recorded audio, especially rock music, rarely has the dynamic range of sound that live performances exhibit. Most people do not listen to recorded audio at volume levels one would hear at live performances. Therefore, compression and other effects are applied to blend the instruments including the percussive ones so that they may be heard and enjoyed at a much lower volume.
Might be worth posting these here again for those that may not have seen them ..... A series of blind listening tests put together by forum member @grandegi. There's plenty of info and some surprising results, with the Marino's not quite the definitive forum punching bags that they're commonly regarded as. And it also demonstrates that it is possible to like a mixture of these three masterings, and still live a normal life. LZ I ..... Led Zeppelin (S/T album) on CD: a blind listening test LZ II ..... Led Zeppelin II on CD: a blind listening test LZ III ..... Led Zeppelin III on CD: a blind listening test LZ IV ..... Led Zeppelin's Untitled on CD: a blind listening test HOTH ..... Houses Of The Holy (album): a blind listening test PG ..... Physical Graffiti on CD: a blind listening test PRESENCE ..... Presence on CD: a blind listening test ITTOD ..... In Through The Out Door on CD: a blind listening test CODA ..... Led Zeppelin's Coda on CD: a blind listening test
Sure, but volume, dynamic range, and EQ are different things. I thought we were talking about EQ there. Take a listen to the sample flac I posted in the post above. To me, it sounds good. I'm 99.999% sure you won't agree, though.
There is nothing specifically spectacular about the Davis remasters from a sonic standpoint (especially HOtH which is from a less than optimal source), they just have that standard “remastered sound” (boost the highs and add some limiting) which gives the illusion of more detail. It’s possible that to many original LZ fans (now in an age bracket where age related hearing damage/loss is inevitable), the Davis remasters would sound just like the un-hyped Diaments to a younger person. One person’s “natural sound” may be another’s “dull and wooly”, but vice-versa someone’s “detail and clarity” is someone else’s “screechy high end”.
Are you sure that you don’t have some high frequency loss in your hearing? That sample could kill mosquitos at 30 paces.
How would he define properly given he was involved with two separate remastering campaigns for the catalogue.
Thanks for trying to tie up all the loose ends. First of all, that last paragraph in bold- does it also apply to the late '90s CDs from Japan with cardboard sleeves mimicking the original artwork? I like those, even The Song Remains The Same. It makes perfect sense that a slight adjustment would be needed to the same track, at first taken out of context in Box Set 1 or 2, then placed back in its original context on the album it was intended for. What I have: 1990 Crop Circles Vinyl 1993 Box Set 2 CDs '93 Complete Studio Recordings CDs '98/99 Japanese CDs (missing the fourth album, not sure why) Diament '80s LZ I and Physical Graffiti.
He only started the band, produced the albums, wrote almost all the music, was half of one of the greatest songwriting teams in rock 'n roll history, and played all the guitar parts on all the albums. Compared to "anonymous internet guy" - you, in other words, Jimmy's an idiot. Another ignore. Congrats?
Zep is his baby and he's naturally pretty protective of it's legacy. In his mind, if there was a transfer to CD without his involvement, regardless of the outcome, he would probably envision that as not being done properly because he wasn't involved. Because he was then involved in the next CD re-issue campaign - the Marinos - in his view, that was done "properly". Plus you've got to factor in a bit of marketing spin as well, the catalog had already been on CD for a few years and now punters needed to be convinced that this new version is the one to buy. Nothing more to it really.
Mmm Hmmm. I get it, but are similar claims for other '70s bands made for their '80s CDs? Honestly, the very first CD I ever heard was of Machine Head, whatever the very first version was, at a friend's house in '83 or '84. He'd gone out on a limb and bought a CD player for a grand, which to me was bonkers. That early Machine Head CD was absolute garbage, btw. Nowhere near as good as a decent LP on a decent system at that time. It put me off buying my own CD player for almost 10 years.
Jimmy Page has claimed a lot things in recent years, much of it objectively not true. He also repeated the same questionable promotional rhetoric (”Original tapes for the first time!” etc) both times he remastered and reissued the catalog. I remain skeptical of statements made by musicians and record companies trying to sell us again what we’ve already bought multiple times over, but that’s just me.
I'm not really sure what you mean, but with regards to Deep Purple, I really like my old EMI discs of theirs ....... but that's another thread.
It's a simple enough choice to make. Just don't buy it. It's not easy to make Led Zeppelin in the studio sound bad. The albums were well done to begin with. But the Diament CDs are made out to be exponentially better in every single way than anything that came afterward, by a small group of SHF members with (presumably) lots of time on their hands. The Marinos sound fine. So do the recent Davis versions, though, for me personally, those were more about having the catalog back on vinyl than anything digital. "But they weren't AAA...." blah, blah, blah ad infinitum. What's amusing is that some people actually want the Zeppelin catalog remixed! Can you imagine all the pissing contests 'round here if that actually happened?
Plant had more of a hand in that one than in other Zeppelin projects. And they all have to sign off for anything to be released at all. But, let's ignore that too.
