Are The Speakers We Purchase Really What They Are Cracked Up To Be?

Not that I really care, but here is what Richie said about it just to complete the arc ... Upgraded Usher Be-718 Crossovers

 

Here is what Danny posted on Audio Asylum back in 2008

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  Posted by Danny (M) on May 22, 2008 at 13:15:20
  In Reply to: Uasher Be 718 & gray marketers posted by Audiopath49 on May 21, 2008 at 11:18:48:
  
  
  

Let me see if I can clear some of this up.

The original BE-718 as designed by Usher is very fine speaker. If what I have been told is correct the crossover was designed by Mr. Tsai at Usher. It was tested and signed off on by Joe D'.

All BE-718's built by Usher and sold outside North America are this version.

Musik Matters (the North American importer) brought this model to me because they wanted to take it to another performance level.

I basically designed a completely new network for it. I chose all parts values, type, brand, quality, and the company to assemble them here in the US. The new crossover has no resemblance of the original. The new design uses high purity inductors from Erse, Sonicaps, Gen.2 Sonicap by-pass caps, and Mills resistors. Even the internal wiring is stepped up to JPS Labs Alumiloy.

The new crossover allowed a little more adjustment of the baffle step loss and brought the drivers into a little better phase relationship over a wider range than the original.

Sound wise everything about the speaker was improved especially in resolution and detail levels. It is considerably cleaner top to bottom. Imaging has been improved as well.

Suffice to say these higher quality parts are not cheap and it does effect the retail price. You don't get something for nothing. You get a lot more and you pay a little more.

All of the BE-718's sold and reviewed in the US have this new network. All of those great reviews and awards have been on this version.

You must beware that the less expensive version sold outside the US has been brought in and have been sold or attempted to be sold as the real deal US version. Musik Matters is working hard to make sure that this is known and trying to keep this from happening.

If there is any doubt as to whether a pair being sold is a US version or not you can contact Musik Matters about it and they should be able to confirm its origin from its serial number.

They can be reached from the info found here: MusikMatters.com is for sale | HugeDomains

Thanks,
Danny Richie

 

Problem just substituting with boutique components does not necessarily make it better. Maybe he would have more credibility if he swapped out a critical capacitor here or there that was found to influence sound significantly. These are not cheap speakers where there would be obvious cost cutting prioritized over correct voicing. I'm afraid Danny gives the impression that he prioritizes measurement over sound. A speaker might be designed to measure imperfectly for very good audible reasons related to it's intended use.

 

Surely the 'real' version is what Usher designed and not the US one Danny was let loose on?

 

Very interesting thread, and I usually see Danny’s videos out of curiosity.

Am I interested in see what he could find dissecting my favorite speakers: Totem Model 1 or Thiel CS.5?
Not really
Those brands (and chief engineers) had the knowledge and means, the R&D capacity to design exactly what they intended (for a selling price point) and I am only interested about the sound.
Therefore, I believe in the achieved balance of the design, and changing any part for a superior one could break that balance.
And nothing is perfect by the way.

For exemple: the Kef LS50 is a speaker that fails to go along with my ears. Other way of saying this is I don’t care for what Kef intended with this speaker’s sound. It is just my personal taste and that is ok. We all have preferences and expectations.
Could this be a case for Danny’s upgrades?
Not in my opinion. Changing the “Kef sound” for what? Changing parts and specs doesn’t mean better sound, and more important, doesn’t mean that I would like the result. It better to sell them and buy another speakers... which I did.

Another example is Danny’s take on the Wharfedale Lintons Heritage.
He found a great deal of flaws on this remarkable low price and well built standmount, but even experienced musicians and audiophiles seems to love them. Those “cheap parts” are there as part of a desired result.
Could it be better? Perhaps different and more expensive.
Wharfedale’s chief designer not only is in the business for decades and knows all there is to know, but also have all the funds for proper R&D, and choose to do it like that, because there is always a specific target, budget and price point in designing a mass production object.
I am guessing the new $6000 Wharfedale model - bigger and improved Linton - although better should not get the same love.

Danny’s own designs should be great, but I certain that some will love their sound and some not so much... and that’s is ok.

 

The one Danny "was let loose on" is the one that was a Stereophile Class A and Absolute Sound editors choice.

Did Danny do something to you to make you have this attitude? I can't speak for anything else he has said or done. But the BE-718 is a grand slam of a speaker, so when you take shots at it, I have to wonder, what is your motivation? Have you even heard them?

 

Thanks for taking shots at me. BTW which version is a grand slam? The factory or the moded USA. I'm puzzled why the importer in the USA would produce a third party altered version. The fact it is Danny is a different matter. My point is in general that his modification is not necessarily an improvement and maybe just different. Why would you change the factory design which must have been arrived at after months of development and testing? Same goes for any modifications offered by Danny or any other similar business.

 

The stale wind continues to blow.

 

Factory designs are more often than not a compromise, in favor of less expensive designs. Factory crossovers are a prime example of this.

I don't know anything about Danny and am not commenting on his work one way or another.

I have custom crossovers on my Altec's. People regularly upgrade the crossovers on Klipsch Heritage speakers.

 

Yes perfectly understandable on vintage speakers as components have improved. Modifying new product straight out of the factory is perplexing to me. If you don't like the sound buy another speaker or a more expensive speaker where the budget allows for boutique components. Any mods cost quite a lot of extra money to execute especially if you pay an 'expert' to do it for you. So not a free lunch. There are expensive products that appear to sell customers short on quality but they just might have found run of the mill components sound as good. Again vote with your wallet.

 

This x 1000.



I personally also extend this rule to audiophile discussions the use “myth” or “cracked up to be” in the heading.

 

Yes components have improved but so have designs.

I can buy quality vintage components at a decent price. I can upgrade them to better quality speakers than modern more expensive designs.

I agree, better to buy better goods in the first place. Paying for new speakers and then spending money to upgrade them is not the best idea.

.

Good crossover networks are a costly project. Mostly not worth the investment in less expensive speakers.

The conventional approach is to overspend on items like very expensive capacitors beyond what is called for.

The problem is that spending stupid money on components is not a substitute for better engineering.

 

Are you being intentionally obtuse? The grand slam version is obviously the one Danny built the crossover for. You may be puzzled, but I don't know why, when Danny clearly stated "Musik Matters (the North American importer) brought this model to me because they wanted to take it to another performance level."

You say his modification may not be an improvement, and as I have not heard the original, I can't say that it is. However, I can say it is an outstanding speaker, and the importer thought his changes were worth the extra cost, and so did the market. And so did 6Moons, TAS and Stereophile, hence the class A rating. To quote their Wes Phillips, who compared it favorably to the $7000 Dynaudio Confidence C1:
"the men who designed the Usher Be-718 have achieved something remarkable: a small speaker that sounds big, and possibly twice as good as it has a right to... if you don't want to spend a penny more than you have to for not simply good but great sound, if you love music and want to keep the affair alive, you should listen to the Usher Be-718—and buy a powerful amplifier with the money you'll save. You won't regret either decision."

I could easily post another half dozen reviews that are just as glowing. Like 6Moons: "these Tiny Dancers are terrific performers combining a surprising and class-leading quality and quantity of bass brawn with excellent dynamics, a beautifully articulate and expressive mid-band and an honest yet fatigue-free treble." ". I find these Ushers exceptionally endearing and involving, which is by far their most important characteristic. If I were in the market for a stand mount these would be my first choice because...one that is as engaging to listen to as the Usher Be-718 comes along only once in a blue moon."

I can't defend Danny's business model or any of his other mods, because I haven't heard any of them. But I have been listening to my Ushers daily since 2010 and am continually impressed by them. Over the decade, I have heard dozens of much more expensive speakers that don't impress me at all. The few that do are way out of my price range. I am grateful the folks at Musik Matters turned Danny Richie loose on them.

 

A great speaker should be more than the sum of its parts.

 

On my third speaker design I was able to better my Revel Ultima Studios in terms of bass extension, high frequency extension and the tone of the midrange. It just wasn't just me who heard this - several of my audio buddies said the same thing and they were quite amazed as I was.

It wasn't just the drivers I used - 8" Dayton Reference paper woofer, 8" Dayton subwoofer and a Fountek Neo3 Ribbon tweeter - it was the way I VOICED my speakers that did the trick - the Revels were cool sounding in the midrange and I prefer warm sounding mids which made a huge difference especially when it came to vocals. The ribbon tweeter also had greater extension and more detail.

I can't compare what it cost me to build these speakers - about $1000 for the pair against what the Revels cost because of Revel's extra costs which didn't apply to me - shipping containers, paying employees a decent wage, advertising, etc.

My latest speakers are much much better and are comparable to speakers that cost much much more - I blew away one of the owners of LMC Audio when we A/B'd my speakers against some expensive Wilsons using the same equipment. While they didn't sound identical or image the same (mine were better) they reproduced about >90% of what the Wilsons produced.

My speakers cost me about 2K to build - the Wilson's cost $750K. I am in negotiations with LMC to produce my speakers but with higher quality cabinets and better finishes - which a mill shop will build using far better equipment than I have, and more expensive internals like caps and inductors and wiring.

My latest upgrade was my switch to using 2 10" woofers in a vibration cancelling design and 2 12" passive radiators.

Wish me luck as it could help increase my wealth w/o having to do the actual work - just the design and revisions to get even better sound.

 

Lets not forget everything is built to a price point. The lower you go the more they sacrifice what parts they can use to achieve the outcome.

Its a pay to play hobby , lets keep that in mind during discussions.

Now I got that out of the way, one of my all time favourite speakers were my PMC GB1i's, an entry level speaker that in some quarters got panned for using low cost parts yet to me it sounded so right and got me hooked on PMC. I miss those simpler times quite often.

 

Great, but I was not commenting on how good the speakers are just why were they modified. I'm quite aware of the positive reviews these and other Ushers get. You seem to think I'm criticising your choice of speakers which is far from the case. I take it the unmodified versions sold outside the USA get equally positive reviews. This is about dubious benefits of modifications rather than the quality of Usher speakers. You seem to take this rather too personally. Actually I'm sure I heard the standard 'tiny dancers' some years back and they certainly sounded fine. Usher seem to have disappeared from the UK in recent times after once being forum favorites.

 

[Are The Speakers We Purchase Really What They Are Cracked Up To Be?]

Mine Are!

Ted

 

I can’t help but think how irritated I would have been to have a customer want me defend my product against a YouTuber . With a list no less.

 

No doubt I did take this too personally. I credit Danny Ritchie with making my speakers great, so it bothered me to see people saying, basically, that he is a hack, conning people into paying him, when his mods are just making their speakers sound different, and very possibly, worse. But none of the people making these assertions seem to be basing them on hearing his mods.

So I brought up the BE-718 as an example of one of his mods that lots of people have heard, and loved, and I use it as evidence he is not a hack. You use the term "dubious benefits of modifications," but I haven't seen much proof that his mods are not making speakers sound better.

Even 15 years after their release, I can still search and find a half dozen reviews of the US version of these speakers. I think they got a lot of reviews because they played them at shows like CES and Rocky Mountain, reviewers heard them and asked for samples they could evaluate themselves. The Stereophile reviewer says it took him 3 days to get into the Usher room at the Home Entertainment Show. You say you "take it" that the non-US versions got equally good reviews, but my web searches have not found any. Which is too bad, because I think the British audio press is much better than ours. You said you heard them and they sounded fine. All the reviewers over here thought they were quite special. I give the credit to Danny. But you may be right. Maybe he didn't help them at all.

 

I enjoy Danny's videos. I have learned a lot about what goes into the design and construction of various speakers from those videos.

I have some vintage speakers that I've thought about seeing if Danny could improve. I've thought about buying one of his DYI complete new speaker kits. I need to just go in sometime and hear his products and his improved mods to see how I like them. Since you have some of his speakers, how would you describe the sound signature?

 

Danny haters are a dime a dozen in this forum because he fixes/upgrades the crappy speakers they own. It is some kind of boneheaded subservience/loyalty they exhibit towards a manufacturer (because they paid for it). It could never have any flaws if they paid for it, y'know!! "He called my speaker a piece of sht, butthurt, boo hoo" etc, etc

They seem to not understand the fact that Danny's customers are the guys who are unhappy with the speakers they purchased and want Danny to fix/upgrade it. They ship the speakers to GR at their own cost.

Danny haters would be thrilled if every guy sat tight with every piece of sht speaker (from a dummy engineer who was building sht to some pricepoint) out of sheer loyalty and subservience to some brand name.

 

Don’t know why there’d be “haters”. He seems to offer a great cost effective upgrade for certain speakers that make sense. A reasonable alternative for many providing a valuable service in the market.

 

Look at this abomination of a speaker design and the fix/upgrade he gave for the guy who sent it to him....Very useful service indeed. He shouldn't have offered a fix for this piece of crap (apparently), according the Danny haters and brand name/crap loyalists.

 

Your speakers are only as good as the rest of your system, your room, your ears, etc.