Are The Speakers We Purchase Really What They Are Cracked Up To Be?

Amen to that bro ! If it ain't broke......

 

I've made speakers sound better with better parts inside, and I've made speakers sound worse with better parts inside.

IME it's the sum of the parts, not just a cap here or better wire there. Just because you buy sonicaps doesn't mean the drivers and xover will respond the way you might think. It's not that simple.

Sure a lot of manufacturers use cheap @ss parts, but mucking with a design is just trial and error unless you have a lot of knowledge in speaker design. Sometimes you get lucky. Sometimes you can't put the old parts back in fast enough.

 

There quite a few points I would agree with you on, but there are a few points worth a bit more discussion.

I find it interesting that other reviewers points of view are used to validate the quality of this speaker, and that as I recall Atkinson will measure them. Yet Ritchie's measurements and listening, as Danny does indeed listen to his work, it not worthy? I have heard a few of Danny's designs over the years, from early to later, and as a whole I found them to be quite nice. As I recall Danny also performs design work for other commercial companies, so he is just far from a You Tuber. Or as a "tinkerer" as you refer to him as.

I also find it interesting that you want listening sessions on his revised speaker designs as proof of their authenticity. Yet you already are willing to disparage them, and it seems you have not listened to them. Yes they will be different from the original issue, that certainly can be agreed on. Will they be better or worse, or perhaps just different. Often different is one persons worse and another's better.

Would I modify a pair of Dynaudios? No, I agree with others that I would sell them and find speakers I like. However, I would buy a pair o GR Research because I have enjoyed every pair I heard.

 

This is the woofer plot from Dynaudio, they make the woofer. They are a leading worldwide mfg. of raw drivers.

From 500 to 2000 flat, +/- 1 dB, it rolls off at 2000. The tweeter tools off at 2000 also. Perfectly matched. The humps shown in his video is suspect?

 

Dynaudio's catalogue is impressive. Complete technical data. Their 30W-100 woofer page 57 is flat, +/- <2 dB 40-500 Hz. THD <0.5% at 20 Hz!

The side bar notes are particulars interesting.


https://www.madisoundspeakerstore.com/pdf/Dynaudio Driver Catalog.pdf

 

I think that as long as my personal opinion matters mostly only to me (as opposed to other SHFers, and as opposed to an external audience that I don’t have in the first place), it becomes my personal responsibility to also find balance when doing assessments. What I am responsible for avoiding is being so forceful or relentless that I end up trying to force other to agree with me. So, I think that also means I have to demand the same sort of unerring balance every time I encounter some touted new upgrade or fix (too often, in audio, fixes for things that aren’t broken).

So here’s the main issue that I think your reasonable post isn’t considering. Unlike GR Research, I don’t assess a Dynaudio Special 40 speaker on anything other than its merits that are audible when driven by a well-understood system all set up in a well-understood listening room, and most important, also without anything on my part to sell. GR Research cannot possibly be an objective reviewer or conduct objectively fair assessments because first and foremost he intends to sell upgrade kits. That fact prevents Danny Richie from being a reliable reviewer. Rather than stating - as I do every single time I post a review or a technical assessment or respond to requests about comparative listening assessments in various threads on SHF - that he is basing his judgements on his measurements and what the speakers sound like to his ears without any comparative listening sessions, Danny apparently proceeds to presume that all audiophiles will hear things just as he does. Even that last bit is an assumption on my part because Danny never actually states that the Dynaudio Special 40 sounds bad-in-the-bass to him. He just states that he finds it substandard. What a lot of rot that is.

Frankly, I think that’s either the mistake of an amateur who doesn’t understand the value of objective assessment, or the deliberate approach of someone with something to sell and who wants to sidestep objective assessment for that reason.

i think that we must not react with automatic acceptance to videos like the one posted by GR Research about the Dynaudio Special 40 speakers. Far too often, factual efficacy is automatically lent to such videos when, as I’ve suggested, the person posting the video has something to sell that depends for its success on enough people believing his derogation of a specific product that is known by a lot of audiophiles to actually be very good.

While my own assessment of the Dynaudio Special 40 was done side-by-side with half a dozen other competing speakers over a period of three weeks in (IIRC) six different listening sessions at Altronics in Toronto, and in one of my own listening rooms, Danny Richie makes no such attempt at fair assessment and comparison with other speakers. He merely states that - apparently without listening to the speakers at all - what he considers to be unwanted in the frequency response chart/plot must be fixed with his kit or parts or whatever. That verges on being, at least in my view, absurd on its face.

To a great extent, I think you’ve responded to the question you implied to me. I did not disparage Danny’s speakers. What I suggested was that until one of Danny’s designs that audiophiles suggest compete’s in sound quality with the Dynaudio Special 40 is actually assessed side-by-side in a comparison listening session, or until at least a few Dynaudio Special 40 owners switch to GR speakers because those owners auditioned the GRs and found them better, Danny’s speakers are not better than anything.

Excellent, IMO. We like what we like, and anybody who suggests we shouldn’t is wrong. I hasten to point out too - as I have in dozens of posts over the years here, at least in threads where it was appropriate to do so - that music enjoyment can come from the least expensive speakers, sources and amplification as long as the components meet certain basic requirements and as long as they’re carefully set up and as long as the speakers don’t overload or underload the listening room, and as long as the speakers are positioned to do the best they’re able to do in a given room. In no way does any of that suggest that stepping up to higher quality, just as well chosen and set up components won’t then seriously elevate the listening experience in the same room. It most definitely will.

As audiophiles who love music, we’re each responsible for doing everything rational that we can to get the very best out of our existing components. Only when we’ve reached the true, practical limit of what can be done with given sources, components and speakers in a given room should be consider modifying or upgrading or replacing anything. Period. Far too many audiophiles are driven by persuasive marketing and engaging YouTube presentations to buy platter mats, little upgrade baggies containing ‘upgrade’ parts, magic speaker feet, gut-punch priced wiring, dust-collecting acoustic foam damping material, allegedly resonance-absorbing component platforms, and you name it, and far too often also for systems that are incorrectly installed in rooms that themselves require correction (in ways that often don’t require any expenditure at all). I have literally lost count of the number of listening rooms I’ve fixed without spending so much as a penny of anyone’s money. Bad speaker placement that an audiophile knows is not optimal but which life and just getting on with other things has driven him to accept is the single most frequent ‘sin’ I encounter. There are plenty of others that my advice, as an outsider to the household, is sometimes perceived as reasonable enough to overcome real considerations such as WAF, room arrangement, and so on. Not one time ever - not even once in dozens and dozens of projects over the years - was a crossover or driver or internal wiring modification needed.

Sometimes, my best effort still isn’t good enough. It has happened often enough to be irritating. Sometimes, a room is just bad. Sometimes a lousy listening room in an apartment or a lousy listening room in a gigantic house (on which the owner spent upwards of $100K for the listening/home theater room alone in at least one case) can’t be fixed my way. Sometimes, the room is wrong no matter what equipment and components and decoration and damping and resonance control and diffusion elements, blah, blah, blah, are proposed or attempted. Sometimes, it’s just a *!#&%$ room. Again though, no amount of speaker twiddling with crossover parts and replacement drivers and cabinet bracing will solve the problem. Headphones! And a good headphone amp! There’s your solution sometimes, at least until the audiophile can upgrade to better digs or (in the case of two, custom home theater room owners) do a renovation and sue the contractor who fouled up the room in the first place.

In some forums - AudioCircle, among a couple of others - Danny Richie’s products are very popular. The audiophile hobbyists who are into making and building and kitting have a number of good things to say about GR Research. That’s great! Seriously. But almost all of them - though I’m sure there are some exceptions - regard GR Research products as budget champs, for the most part.

I think it’s eminently rational for audiophiles to pointedly question any and all sellers who are disparaging one product while pitching their own products to allegedly fix the one they’re putting down.

I’ll put my money where my mouth is now, and order a pair of GR speakers. You’ve heard several different pairs? Do you still own a pair of GR speakers or have you moved on? What do you recommend for a small, midfield listening room? Any other SHF GR speaker owners? Any recommendations? Please post.

 

Fantastic all round post. Thanks.

 

The caveat is typically a variation on, "...in the budget price range they're hard to beat."? Ah yes, i've heard that before, the cya statement from the reviewer choir. Some of these song birds also come up with statements like xx% of this speaker like they somehow managed to compute a percentage for however the freak it sounded, etc

For a reference point, I have had used Wilsons (past), Rockports (past), TAD (current), Von Schweikerts (current) that are easily more than 20 times the price of that kit. I have never owned Magicos, but i've heard them enough. I know what i heard on the N-Xtremes. No caveat!!
I have a 32ft by 24 ft above grade odd shaped basement room, these speakers could possibly work in...only problem is a 8 ft ceiling...and a 25 yr old marriage i'd like to save. Like i said before, if you have the space and can do justice to these things on room acoustics and electronics, i am fairly certain it can 'compete' with anything at any price.

 

I might try to build some small 2 way bookshelf speakers.

You can get the Dynaudio drivers used for $800 (research other mfgs. too)
Design & build the crossovers
I have a buddy who is a cabinet maker

Dynaudio gives you all the info you need to model and design. I already have more speakers than I need (3 sets) but this might be fun.

Gather the materials and start next fall, I'm not wasting this summer indoors.

First step:
Loudspeaker Design, John Murphy

this might be better, hard copy, college text

 

I personally would love to hear your thoughts on a pair of Danny's speakers, and that's a great service for the community that you'd be willing to do this. I have thought about buying the NX-Studio. Seems like a good fit for a small room - it's a large standmount but is sealed (the woofer at least). The tweeter is open baffle and that is interesting for sure. But I'm not comfortable building a speaker; I'd probably need someone to build it for me, or develop my skills first before trying. Doesn't seem complicated at all, but I'd want to do a superb job and don't really trust myself to do so at this point.

 

You mention that Danny cannot be unbiased because he produces a product or offers a service. You are right, and NO other manufacturer, publication, reviewer, or even hobbyist can be unbiased either due to the very same reasons. Even as a hobbyist you have a bias created by the components you have selected to use as an evaluation system, or even the room you listen in as it influences the sound. We all have biases, the question becomes how do they factor into the evaluation. To think any manufacturer is completely altruistic and has just your best interests at heart is going to lead to disappointment. Any of us hobbyists are responsible for our buying decisions, and have to evaluate the info we can obtain against what our experiences and belief systems are. We can only make selections that meet our needs, we are the only ones responsible for that. Quite often in this hobby people believe in expert recommendations and do not accept their responsibility in the buying process.

I am a hobbyist that owns one system with one set of speakers. Many of GR Research products are kits, flat packs, and the full production speakers with cabinets you could assemble are not available like they were in the past when I got my first GR Research monitors. But I did consider buying a pair of the big open baffles that were already built, but shipping was going to be a challenge. 5 years ago we moved across the state and bought a new house and I wanted a quality pair of full range speakers. I was fortunate that I found a pair of JBL 4365 that were a year old on USAudiomart. So that is what I use.

As far as what GR Research speaker to try? I have no idea, I really am not sure of what Danny's current product line up consists of, and not sure how a person gets a pair that is already built. But then again I have a bias, so you wouldn't want to trust my recommendation.

 

Well said!

 

No one is saying altruistic or absent of bias.
But most are third party tested. The issue with kits any fault can be blamed on the builder, not the supplier.

Major manufactures test to standards, and reviewers can independently test.

when one guy is in control of all information it does not instill confidence.

It's like kit cars and planes, they are not subject to the same standards as manufacturers items.

IEC loudspeaker standards
https://webstore.iec.ch/preview/info_iec60268-5{ed3.0}en.pdf

a list of applicable standards: IEEE, AES, etc
Standards

 

So the topic of loudspeakers and testing bring up that age old conundrum. Speakers can only be tested under the same conditions if its done in an anechoic chamber. If you perform testing in room then measurements cannot be conducted under the same conditions. So however a speaker tests in a chamber has limited correlation to what the listener will experience in their application. So frequency response, polar response patterns, and other tests will provide indicators, but cannot provide all information needed. Listening tests by the perspective owner are meaningful also, but the truth is we cannot hear everything we want to in order to make a buying decision. So we have to read user reviews, published articles, manufacturer info and anything else we can glean. As an example I bought my JBL 4365 unheard, but I knew what this kind of format of speaker could bring to the table. Yes I spent $8K on a pair of speakers with an original MSRP of $21K. In the end, you spend your money and you take your chances. Ultimately its up to you to father as much info as possible, make the buying decision, and understand the uncertainties that are presented by your choices. And its up to you to find the ways to minimize the risks, and if the efforts to minimize those risks are worth the effort, time, and money to you. There are no guarantees in life, and no sure bets in audio.

 

That plot explains why I thought Dynaudio were a bit bright when I heard them. super cool. Thanks

 

This really doesn't compute to me there's a vast difference between someone selling something and a home user or even a reviewer. Sure there may be conscious or subconscious bias in terms of our gear but that doesn't mean an agenda exists and sales is an agenda.

And to be clear I am speaking of someone doing home evaluation or review in good faith not as a hidden shill or on a mission to bash other products. Needing to make sales to make a living is an entire different level of bias and agenda it's really not comparable.

 

If I were moving to a much larger property and designing an unltimate ( for me) A/V system in the 100k + range it would be based on Pro JBL/ McIntosh without hesitation. Their “house sounds” imo fit my preferences like a glove.

 

That’s all true. But you’re missing a crucially important point - and the crucially important difference - that Dynaudio (and many other audio companies) all manage to offer their products and services without in any way criticizing and publicly hacking any of their direct competitors’ products or any of Danny Richie’s GR Research products . The major audio companies, and just about all of the minor ones too, manage to develop their products and ply their competitive trade without critiquing GR speakers or anything else that GR offers. I think you missed that part of the argument. It’s fundamentally important.

“...wouldn’t want to trust (your) recommendation?” That’s needlessly defensive, and if I inadvertently put you on the defensive, I apologize. But, I think you’re missing the point again. You’re an SHF member and audiophile who has stated that he has heard more than one pair of GR Research speakers. Why wouldn’t I ask you and other SHF members familiar with the speakers for recommendations on what I should consider first? For crying out loud, that’s one of the main reasons we gather here! I’m not trying to trick you or find a way to blame you if you recommend something that I then buy and don’t like. That’s not why we gather here. Other members post requests for recommendations every single day on SHF. Now, so am I. It was just a simple question. If I have to purchase a cabinet kit/flatpack plus the matching electronics and drivers, great. I’m up for a bit of kit building now, if only to find out first-hand how GR speakers sound.

 

This pretty much sums it all up. Period

 

The first point is certainly correct, and that is the anchoring point of all companies that offer upgrades or mods. The idea is that the following engineer can correct limitations built in by the OEM. The reasoning often given is its built to a price point, and X,Y,Z will unleash its full potential. In essence you are agreeing with one engineer/designer over another.

Is that the right choice for you? Do you have an issue with this type of business model? Some do, but this has been going on since Steve McCormack and Mod Squad. Same with upgrades offered by Musical Concepts, Van Alstine, and even Audio Research had mods for venerable Dynaco tube amplifiers. I don't think anyone can make a blanket statement that all mods are going to offer an improvement or not, its really a case by case basis. I typically don't buy them. However, I was once considering a pair of Klisch Belle speakers and I would put the Volti horn mod into them. But I would have been buying them for the bass bin and the beautiful cabinets, I already knew I wanted what I felt was improved performance that the stock EV mid and tweeters were not capable of. But for others the concept and philosophical framework behind mods or upgrades does not align with their internal values, and for them it is not worth it. I personally tend to lean that direction also, but there are exceptions.

 

Good post

The standardized testing in an anechoic chamber tells you how the speaker performs, not the room which the mfg. has no control over. It is a baseline.

There is a standard for listening room evaluation method, it gives room specs, I'm sure all major mfgs. have rooms like this that they bring people in (musicians, recording engineers, reviewers, etc) to get feedback from.

Rec. ITU-R BS.1116-1 1
RECOMMENDATION ITU-R BS.1116-1*
METHODS FOR THE SUBJECTIVE ASSESSMENT OF SMALL IMPAIRMENTS IN AUDIO SYSTEMS INCLUDING MULTICHANNEL SOUND SYSTEMS
(Question ITU-R 85/10)
https://www.itu.int/dms_pubrec/itu-r/rec/bs/R-REC-BS.1116-1-199710-S!!PDF-E.pdf

imo standards serve a few purposes:
-Safety (speaker can cause a fire or damage other components)
-Level the competitive playing field , all use the same 'rules', minimize outlandish claims
-Protect the consumer; Apples to apples

 

If they don’t why the hell would we buy them in the first place then want to fix them afterwards? I can see maximizing the speakers through proper driving electronics but I certainly wouldn’t want to “change” the sound I desired in the first place. If that’s the case buy better speakers.

 

Would be cool if he took a look at say the KALI IN-8, KRK ROKIT 10-3 4 or similar cheap 3-way active studio monitors.. I'd also like to learn more about what goes on with EVE Audio SC3070 and similar price ranged 3-way variants

 

Agreeing with one engineer/designer over another? Not at all. Typically, and unlike Steve McCormack and the late, lamented Mod Squad company (I remember the phono preamp, but not much else), I agree with, or rather favor, one completed, marketed, available and audition-able product over another. That Danny Richie also promotes cable break-in theories and speaker break-in theories and measurements (mainly of his doped, paper cone drivers that are unfortunately unstable and certainly do change over time because of inevitably radiated voice coil heat that affects his relatively unstable cones) basically narrows his focus to his products and nothing else. He believes that he has developed the best solution and that he is offering the best solution. Mazel tov to him. Based purely on his YouTube presentation and the interest in his products amongst audiophiles who seem to be focused on budget speaking building and budget speaker modification, Danny is off in a home audio cul-de-sac in which I haven’t actively participated in many years.

But . . . I’m still waiting for some actual GR speaker owners to throw some more suggestions at me for current models so that I can choose one or two and build them at home. Not much action on that front so far.

I don’t really think it’s appropriate to put Danny Richie in the same maker/builder classification as Steve McCormack and Mod Squad, or Van Alstine or Audio Research. In that regard too, I would never have purchased and installed Rega bearing and subplatter upgrade kits in several different RP6 turntables over a period of three years if Groovetracer had posted a YouTube video in which he balefully dissed Rega’s design decisions. That’s not what the best modding companies do, at least not of outside sophomoric threads on Audioholics or Audio Circle in which the participants sling their respective realities at each like poison-tipped spears. Unlike Danny Richie, the high-quality modders instead talk about how performance will improve in this area or that area (however well founded or, unfortunately too often, unfounded that claim is). Nobody who is thinking clearly in this day and age makes statements suggesting or stating that another company’s products are inferior unless they’re cruising for a law suit. In my opinion Danny’s claims are foolish, and his claims are unsupported by anything other than his own opinion.

Still, there’s controversy. So I want some suggestions about what actual, current GR speaker owners are happy with and what GR speakers they’re using in small-ish listening rooms with midfield listening positions. Or just current GR speaker owners of any GR model? I really do want to make a purchase and sort things out for myself, do listening comparisons with my music gang (everybody has now been vaccinated!), and so on.

 

Want a recommendation? Pick up the phone and call the man. Or drop him an email. Perhaps having a conversation with him will provide you with more information needed. Have you ever spoken with him or had meaningful dialogue? If not, then perhaps this is a good chance to do so.

You represent Danny as a tinker and modifier, and the others who built companies performing mods also offered products also create some level of difference. Yet you are not willing to recognize that GR Research has offered a line of of speakers and has an established history. Whether you like the products or not is irrelevant, but you are making a level of distinction between modder and someone who offers a finished product, yet GR Research does also do that. Apparently well enough to continue to stay in business.

I think this line of conversation has run its course, I have said what I have to say, and others can decide what applies to them or not. Its up to everyone to make up their own mind on what they feel about any product, company, or individual. Now back to cleaning out my garage!!!