AT VM95ML on Pro-Ject Debut Carbon???

Discussion in 'Audio Hardware' started by fndrblndr, Feb 28, 2020.

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  1. fndrblndr

    fndrblndr Forum Resident Thread Starter

    Location:
    Seattle
    Hi All,

    I am interested in the new-ish AT VM95 line, especially the Micro Line stylus as a replacement for the Ortofon Blue on my Project Debut Carbon DC. With that said, I have a couple of questions:

    Has anyone tried this combination?

    and

    Does this cart and stylus work from a technical perspective ie Compliance, Low Mass Arm (i believe), and / or any other things to consider?
     
    Floyd Crazy likes this.
  2. Dubmart

    Dubmart Senior Member

    Location:
    Bristol, England
    The only potential worry I'd have is arm height, although the VM95s look to be similar size to 2Ms I have had to adjust the arm down as far as it would go on the last two I fitted, though not on the one prior to that which was a Rega and perhaps a better comparison to the Pro-ject. I suspect that AT launched the VM95s as a direct competitor for the Ortofon 2Ms aimed at exactly the same decks so it should fit well, for what it's worth in my opinion the ML is a far superior cart than the 2M Blue.
     
    GyroSE and Floyd Crazy like this.
  3. Mmmark

    Mmmark Forum Resident

    Location:
    Canada
    Just FWIW, I recently compared a 2M Blue and an AT VM95ml (on a totally different TT) and felt the AT was clearly better.
     
    GyroSE likes this.
  4. vinylontubes

    vinylontubes Forum Resident

    Location:
    Katy, TX
    The biggest concern I would have with this swap is the cartridge voltage. The 2M Blue outputs, 5.5mV while the VM65ML outputs 3.5mV. If you phono stage can boost the signal with gain to compensate, you're fine. Otherwise this is a huge hit to your signal-to-noise ratio.
     
  5. fndrblndr

    fndrblndr Forum Resident Thread Starter

    Location:
    Seattle
    That is a concern of mine as well, my preamp options do not have switchable gain. That said, some think that the Ortofon Blue/Red run a bit hot so maybe dropping the voltage will bring me more in line with standard MM cartridges.

    Thanks to all who have commented so far.
     
    Last edited: Feb 28, 2020
  6. Cerealplayer

    Cerealplayer Forum Resident

    Location:
    Australia
    I'd go for it, I'm running the same table with a AT150sa at 4.0mv and didn't notice a big volume difference from the blue or the old 120e with only 14watt SET of power to play with too.
    I've played with the motor extensively to tame the background noise which has helped dramatically as well
     
  7. GyroSE

    GyroSE Forum Resident

    Location:
    Sweden
    Don’t worry about this, it isn’t like the AT-VM95ML is a low output MC cart or something like that. There are high output MC carts that have an output around 2.0 to 2.5 mV and there are no problems running the phono stage adjusted for MM carts with those.
     
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  8. Big Blue

    Big Blue Forum Resident

    Location:
    Wisconsin
    OK, so, from what I find in a search, the effective mass of that arm is 6 grams.

    That might be light for this cartridge, which is low-ish compliance. I suspect it’s a borderline match at best. If you are going with an AT MicroLine, you might be better off with a VM540ML.

    However, I would also suggest finding out the capacitance of your phono input. I don’t see it in a quick look through the PM7001 manual I found online. You want to stick to Audio-Technica’s recommended capacitance for their MM carts, or you may experience the “brightness” some people have complained about. If you can get Marantz to provide the capacitance and it’s around/not much over 100pF, you should be fine (you need the phono input and cables to total within the 100-200pF range).
     
    struttincool likes this.
  9. Mmmark

    Mmmark Forum Resident

    Location:
    Canada
    I'm only weighing in here to share my experience, not disagree. I recently switched to the AT VM95ML and specifically got a pre-amp with adjustable capacitance to avoid running through my integrated amp's 220pf phono stage.
    There IS an audible difference switching from 120pf to 330pf, for example, and yes, I do prefer the sound at 120pf.... BUT, I would not call the difference dramatic, nor would I even try to convince myself that I would have noticed something lacking or off at 220pf through the receiver....in fact what sold me on the pre-amp was the adjustable gain. Had it not had a gain adjustment, I would have returned it, that's how slight the difference was. Tuning both the capacitance AND gain ultimately resulted in an improvement I felt was worth the cost of the preamp...barely.

    TLDR: capacitance, gain, output, compliance, etc. are all important, but once you move beyond general compatability into a search for 'perfect synergy' you are dealing with dramatically diminishing returns.
     
  10. Big Blue

    Big Blue Forum Resident

    Location:
    Wisconsin
    And it may be that the VM95 carts are less sensitive to capacitive load than, say, the VM540ML or its predecessors (traditionally called “bright” by quite a few users over the years when capacitance is not within recommended spec).

    I also don’t know that the compliance won’t match, it just may be a concern. But OP asked if there were technical things to consider, and indeed there are...
     
  11. patient_ot

    patient_ot Senior Member

    Location:
    USA
    Bad idea. The compliance is too stiff for the flimsy Project Tonearm. That thing has 6.5g effective mass. Stick with Ortofon 2M series, OM series, AT VM500 series, etc. and other carts around 20 CU Western style compliance or a little higher.

    Pretty much all new ATs need low capacitance, so keep that in mind.
     
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  12. patient_ot

    patient_ot Senior Member

    Location:
    USA
    Any MI or MM cart with a certain amount of inductance is going to be sensitive to capacitance loading one way or another - no way around it - it's a fact of life. Some carts have higher capacitance requirements than others to get the manufacturer's intended FR. Also, some manufacturers give a wide range of capacitance suggested because they simply do not care whether the end user ends up with something that has a nasty a peak or dip in the response.
     
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  13. Mmmark

    Mmmark Forum Resident

    Location:
    Canada
    OK, so here's a question: let's assume you mount a cart on an arm where the compliance match is borderline...would you improve the situation by adding an auxiliary weight to the tonearm and thereby increasing its effective mass?
     
  14. Big Blue

    Big Blue Forum Resident

    Location:
    Wisconsin
    Hey, that’s what makes sense to me, too, but what do I know?

    It’s possible his capacitance is fine, anyway, it’s just something he may need to ask about or search for deeper than my quick look at the specs in the manual online. My main concern would be the compliance match with that light arm...
     
  15. patient_ot

    patient_ot Senior Member

    Location:
    USA
    The arm alone makes it a no go for the VM95 series.
     
    Big Blue likes this.
  16. Davey

    Davey NP: Portishead ~ Portishead (1997)

    Location:
    SF Bay Area, USA
    Yes, that is one of the beauties of a lightweight arm, you can tune it to whichever resonance frequency you think is best for the cartridge you are using just by adding mass to the cartridge. Of course, mass would be better added to improve the tonearm structure, but that's a different topic.
     
    Soundslave likes this.
  17. Mr. Bewlay

    Mr. Bewlay It Is The Business Of The Future To Be Dangerous.

    Location:
    Denver CO
    Works good on a Rega P2, FWIW.
     
  18. patient_ot

    patient_ot Senior Member

    Location:
    USA
    The Rega tonearm is a bit heavier than the PDC one.
     
  19. Big Blue

    Big Blue Forum Resident

    Location:
    Wisconsin
    In this case, it may even make more sense to both increase compliance and add mass at the cartridge by considering an AT-VM740ML, right? I realize that’s just about doubling the cost from a VM95ML, but it seems like it should be just about a perfect compliance/mass pairing. 540ML should also be fine without adding mass, but if OP is looking for an excuse to go big, I think he has it...
     
  20. Mmmark

    Mmmark Forum Resident

    Location:
    Canada
    I asked because my VM95ML is a good but not great match on my Technics arm. I do have a 10g weight I could add to bring the arm's mass up, but a) general sentiment seems to be that a weight should only used when a cartridge is physically too light to balance the arm, not to compensate for compliance, and b) I already have a KAB fluid damper which I would imagine would have a similar effect in terms of increasing the arm's inertia as it works against the resistance of the fluid....

    Curious if this makes sense to anyone else, ha ha.
     
  21. Big Blue

    Big Blue Forum Resident

    Location:
    Wisconsin
    What headshell are you using?
     
  22. allied333

    allied333 Audiophile

    Location:
    nowhere
    If your 6 gram tone arm weight is correct, it is very light. I read the VM540Ml is better suited to light weight tone arms vs the VM95ML. I would not try the VM95ML that is rated for medium mass tone arms. The VM540ML is a closer match that works per what I read on light medium mass tone arms and perhaps a little on the edge for a 6 gram tone arm, but may work ok as the compliance is in same rage as the Ortofon Blue.
     
    Last edited: Feb 29, 2020
    Big Blue likes this.
  23. At the same time, you might want to consider upgrading to one of the Pro-Ject Signature tone arms. A superior type which other TT makers have forgotten, don't know about or are too cheap to put on their turntables. Besides the tracking advantage, the headshells are removable so that you can mount different cartridges in separate headshells and changes a cartridge swap to plug 'n' play.
     
  24. Davey

    Davey NP: Portishead ~ Portishead (1997)

    Location:
    SF Bay Area, USA
    What is the current resonant frequency? Measurements for the SL-1200 with OEM headshell show a resonance of 7.5Hz for the VM540 in the review at hometheaterhifi.com (figure below), which is marginal on the low side. I know people here say the VM95ML has lower compliance, but I haven't seen the test reports to know how much. I can't imagine it would be that much lower, I'd think the compliance of the VM95ML would move you right into the ideal zone, but I don't have the table or the cartridge to test it myself ...

    [​IMG]
     
  25. Mmmark

    Mmmark Forum Resident

    Location:
    Canada
    Stock black Technics. 7.5 grams from what I gather.
     
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