i'd like to talk a bit about counting lacquers and cuts for PRC pressings, relating to Zep's 'Physical Graffiti'. I'm lucky to have a fairly early, yet not dead first lacquers, copy that reads: Labels have 'RI'. (Grey text is lighter print. Also, they look like tally marks, not the number '1') A) ST-SS-753309-CCC-1-11 PRC AT B) ST-SS-753310-BBB+-1-11 AT PRC C) ST-SS-753311-DDD+1-1 PRC AT D) ST-SS-753312-BBB-1-11 AT PRC So, on page 1; This is true, and correlates , loosely, to other pressings I've seen (Graham Nash's 'Songs For Beginners', CSN albums and solo erratas, etc). First: It's fair to decipher for any pressing plant variant that the heavy, bold letters were in lacquer deadwax inscriptions from Atlantic Records. The additional marks were made FOR the pressing plant, as each of them have their own number system. So, for my copy, the plating was done for PRC (Phillips), which matches the label (RI). They seem to count on an abacus. Instead of moving up the alphabet, or increasing numbers (2,3,4, etc), they simply 'tally' them up. An aside: try to talk out logical sense of the record cutting process: from http://www.aardvarkmastering.com/proceed.htm and many other sites (RTI, etc) Lacquer is cut. Lacquer is sent to plant for plating. Lacquer makes a 'father' plate (inverse groove). 'Father' plates make multiple 'mother' plates. (normal groove) 'Mother' plates make stampers. (inverse groove). Each 'Mother' can make up to ~10 Stampers. Each Stamper *should* make up to about 1000 records. (So they say.) So, 1 lacquer = 1 father = 3 mothers = 30 stampers = 30,000+ records per lacquer. Yes, sometimes a 'father' plate can also be a stamper. I've got no idea if and when they were actually used. For economy's sake, I'd say yes! So, Since Physical Graffiti sold *1 million* on it's first day of release (http://www.ledzeppelin.com/event/march-5-1975)!!! Let's look at a deadwax: (remember, '1's are actually tally marks.) A) ST-SS-753309-CCC-1-11 PRC AT The lacquer is -C. Seems that the first mother of the -C lacquer went to Presswell; the second (-CC) to Monarch, the third (-CCC) to Phillips. (You can also reference other's postings about these plants and deadwax codes here: http://forums.stevehoffman.tv/threa...ffiti-1st-u-s-double-lp-pressing.50864/page-3) The first -1... I'd add that - every - every - RI vinyl I've seen always has that one tally mark. Not two. I've seen a lot. Confident to say they made all the stampers from the mother plate at once for these (and most other big sellers, especially the CSN crowd). The last tallys definitely state the stamper number off of the mother. In my case, it's the first or second. I've seen, especially on 'Deja Vu', up to 7, 8, 9 tally marks on pressings... For a sonic impact, I hear absolutely no discernable difference between sides for stamper numbers. I can't compare for a deep stamper number, yet, that sound would degrade from the mother (perhaps get more distorted on loud treble sections) when getting higher and higher. An aside: Consider the very easy to read Columbia deadwax scenario - you know, the whole -1A; or -3F; or -2AC - The number is the lacquer cut, and the letter is the stamper number. Stamper goes to J then counts again at AA, AB, AC... Deep stampers are definitely not as crisp. Columbia seemed to use less lacquers, and more deep stampers... For Zeppelin, seems to be more lacquers, and I haven't seen stampers go deeper than about 5 or 6. Let's talk MONARCH! From the LZ PG post above, here's two sides: Side 2: Label: (ST-SS-753310-MO) Matrix: ST-SS-753310-DD-EX MR(in circle) AT triangle19707-X F.T. (10) PR Side 3: Label: (ST-SS-753311-MO) Matrix: ST-SS-753311-BB MR(in circle) AT triangle19708(crossed out 6)(7) F.T. IS(maybe, very light) PR They got the second mother stamper from the lacquer. Side 2 is 10 stampers deep, side 3 is 7 stampers deep. Someone was getting sleepy and forgot what stamper they were on! Long story short: Additional letters do specify the first/second/third/etc mothers made from the father & lacquer. The count of stampers off of the mother differs, but should be able to be made out with a little sense. Each pressing plant seems to have a slight impact on overall tone, but I can guarantee you that stamper numbers will impact the sound more! So, for something on a big batch like Physical Graffiti, -so many lacquers were cut at once, or in a short span of time. -lacquer numbers go up quickly, -and so do pressing numbers. I'd feel confident to lean on getting an early-ish lacquer letter and a real good stamper number than the EARLIEST lacquer letter with a deep stamper. All they did was rewind the tape and cut another lacquer the same way... perhaps slight changes on the first few. Seems they discarded -A... earliest ones are -B (with -D on side 2). Sound test rumor has it on the PG post that early lacquers were a bit hotter. They probably examined the grooves post cut and saw they were on the edge. Backed off the volume for C/D/E etc pressings. That means lower distortion on giant Bohnam cymbal crashes. That means, clearer treble, less groove distortion, better pressing. Sorry for the long post. mt
Thanks themagicmanmdt for the thoughtful post regarding the tally marks and additional numbers! It may take me personally some time to digest all the details! When did the marks appear? Early 1970s, and only on certain pressings? I'm looking at a couple RI pressings with additional tally marks, not sure if that agrees with or contradicts your findings. A Led Zeppelin III with "1-1" after the lacquer letter on side one. David Crosby - If I Could Only Remember My Name with "1 11" on side two. Yes - Close To The Edge side two has "-11 -111" Thanks again.
I think it is a modern day reissue. I AM VERY SORRY TO TELL YOU THAT.What makes me say that is there should be an sd in front of the 7255. I own every stereo white label promo except Houses of The holy and they all have the letters in front of the numbers. There are a lot of fakes being made in eastern Europe and south america and a real wlp of houses of the holy is $1000-$1200 a piece for one record. These are the records that are the targets. Go to your own expert and let him look at it and see what he tells you. I HOPE I AM WRONG I just never saw a led zep album label cat# without the letters reg issue or promo or colored vinyl.
Get this to a expert. My white label promos are stereo promos that always have the letters in front of the label number .there is a led zep 2 mono with just a number on it and is genuine. I do agree that the label printing doesn't look right and unless you paid 500 or more for it I would be concerned. You just can not but $1000 records for 100.00.The old saying is true that if it's too good to be true it probably is. You never know you might get lucky SEE AN EXPERT AND FIND OUT.
Houses of the Holy white label promo was mono. Mono Atlantic LPs use a different numbering system. (no "SD")
Thanks for correction but I still think that record is counterfeit. The label doesn't look right to me. I have mono records but only a dozen or more and you people are right that the mono numbering system is a lot different than the stereo one. Now that records are popular collecting items they are being targeted by forgers who are looking to make a quick buck. So buyer beware.
Sorry to have to say that but don't feel bad I got beat for 140.00 on a blue letter Led Zep 1 so I know how it feels.
I am stumped... after researching for 8+ hours in the last 2 days I have found nothing that helps me identify the LZ II album in front of me right now... I am new to SH.tv and am somewhat timid/shy etc. about posting so far as I am quite new to audiophilism or premium sound... obviously.... Here is as much info as I can see right now under the brightest light I have... (apologies on the size/quantity of info... hope it helps in identification.... will take/post pics if deemed necessary/important) Label is very bold green and burnt red/orange and goes as follows (ST-A-691671 CP) on side one and (ST-A-691672 CP) Whole lotta love is above the middle of label and the rest (lemon song, etc) are below on side one Same type of track listings on side two Dead wax is about 2/3 inch wide side one @2:45ish clockwise- a lightly handscribed "S" that is larger than the machine font that follows it a half a cm later 3:00 - a tiny dotted circle with a little line curving out of its right edge then an "I" ST-A691672-1K followed a half a cm later by a larger than machine font and handscribed "S" 9:00 - A handscribed "A I" larger than machine font Side TWO... starting at about 2:40-3:00 clockwise - machined with the "S" halfway down the "T"----> "ST-A691672-1F" 4:00 o'clockish -machined "CTH" 4:30ish - "I" handscribed... Might be a "1" but not capped off like "1" is in this font 5:00ish - "T" with a handscribed "X" to the immediate right closer to capitalized than not... 5:45ish - a larger than machine font, handscribed "S" 9:00ish (going counterclockwise from this point...)- Stamped in machined dots larger on the right side of symbol and smallest on the left side of symbol is what appears to be--->"G" followed slightly right of it by a lower case but larger than machine capitalized font "g" or "9"... The second symbol appears to have a leg between the bottom curve and the circular part of the symbol. PS I played side one (while recording the audio in 2ch on garageband) a few minutes ago for the first time since receiving it and I have to say it is significantly louder, crisper, and disturbingly different than any version I have ever heard in my life... My audio setup is not very good yet and I will be upgrading on feb 1 BUT my headphones are decent and when I listened to the recording after my little casio ms210 tried to handle the album I am now convinced this is a weird press... will post a sample on youtube as user tookenmyname ASAP for identification/enjoyment Thanks
The labels on your copy indicate it was pressed by Columbia in Pitman, New Jersey. The deadwax of your record indicates that it was mastered by Columbia, so this is not a regular Atlantic Records mastering and pressing. That is why you are not finding a lot of info about it in this thread. Sometimes, to meet excess demand, Atlantic would send copies of their master tapes to Columbia Records. Columbia would then do the mastering and then have the records made at one of their pressing plants, usually the ones in Terre Haute, Indiana or Pitman, New Jersey. Also, this situation would occur for record club type pressings. (by chance is there any indication of a record club on the jacket or labels of your copy?) Unfortunately, I personally do not not know the meaning of everything in a Columbia type deadwax. But some of the experts here do, particularly forum member "W.B."
No indication of any kind of record club. Will look deeper into it. Thanks for the info given. _________________ FYI When I was handed the record he kind of smiled slyly. He must be well-off and I know he is a scavenger of all rare vinyl. ... he gave me a 20$ bill and the LZII +8 other LPs...for a box of 500 45s in fair to excellent condition from what i could see... He looked at one handful he randomly pulled out and said "I'll give you 30 bucks and these LPs"... when i saw LZII I thought it was probably a reissue and didn't really look at the rest carefully... Told him 20 was okay since he had driven 30 miles to pick them up and considering the Led Zeppelin and other records (all vinyl appreciated as I lost my 20000+ collection in a divorce... i try not to think about it... currently have 28 LPs with the latest additions) I was happy with 20 bucks too as I am on a tight budget...so he left and I went on about my day happy that I was going to hear LZII again soon The cut on side one has incredible sound to it. Just incredible. And the tracks are way different than any other versions I have ever heard...drastically different. Extra riffs and more effects at loudness made it a genuine eye-opening experience... akin to listening to Pink Floyd's Dark Side of The Moon on Albert Hoffman medicine... but I haven't done drugs in some time now... and this LZII made me think I was dosed... As far as the rest... The 8 other records are somewhat new to me... Mom's Apple Pie, 10CC Deceptive Bends gatefold, Tom Petty "Damn the Torpedoes" gema pressing, a loud LIVE THE J. GEILS BAND gatefold, laser etched Styx Paradise gatefold, Eagles "Eagles" gatefold, Gordon Lightfoot "Shadows" gatefold promo, and Emerson-Lake-Palmer Trilogy gatefold.... ALL of them appear to be in excellent condition and look like originals... giving rise to the question personally at hand... just wondering... Is this pressing strange or odd in some way beyond my perception and did Columbia Pitman pressings have CTH stamped on side two? its too late to be thinking, researching, or asking questions... ____________________________________________
Some Pitman pressings, I've noticed (both LP and 45), had metal parts of Terre Haute origin, with the 'P' stamp placed alongside the etched 'T's'. One example I have in this realm is the Bee Gees' 1971 LP 2 Years On (Atco SD 33-353).
sorry for the wait.... hope this helps in IDing it more precisely... Still absolutely mind blowing about the stereo effects and riffs differences from other versions Thanks for looking.
Hey everyone, I've been trying to figure out pressings of my vinyl for quite some time now, and just came across this thread tonight. I have read through all 7 pages and have found a wealth of information, so thank you for everyone for their contributions. I wanted to apply this knowledge to my records to make sure it all pans out and of course the first record I pick up (AC/DC - Dirty Deeds Done Dirt Cheap) has left me with some questions. Would you guys/girls please help me figure this out? The label is pretty self explanatory: ST - A - 814679 - SP Stereo, Atlantic Records, year tape was received for mastering (1981), tape master # (4679), Specialty Records Corp. The info printed on the Deadwax is where I have questions: Side 1 G STA814679 - 1H COLUMBIA NY Bb The G is handwritten, and I can't figure out what it means. W.B. stated in an above post that the G signified a pressing by Columbia's Carlton, GA plant, but that would contradict the SP on the label, would it not? Also, the cutting letters 1H. I understand what the H would mean, as in 8th cutting, but why the 1 in front of it? The Bb is also handwritten, and actually upside down on the deadwax. Any ideas? Side 2 <J - T7 STA 814680 GIA G This is all handwritten (nothing stamped). Any ideas what the <J - T7, the GIA or the G indicates? I appreciate any insight into this, and I thank you all once again for posting all the incredible info on here.
An earlier post mentioned a US copy of Led Zeppelin II from a "DCE" pressing plant. I have one that shows DCW on the labels (ST-A-691671DCW). Does anybody know what plant this is from? And can we add it to that really nice list of pressing plants? On another note, I cataloged some LZ II RL's today - one is a Monarch pressing with -B / -A stampers. The other is RL on the A side only from a Columbia CTH pressing, ST-A-6921671-1A all hand etched. Didn't know if that was a bit different than what has already been reported - it sounded unusual to me.
It sounds like 'DCE' would likely signify Decca's Gloversville, NY plant, whilst 'DCW' would indicate their Pinckneyville, IL plant. Can you tell whether the 'DCW' has a pressing ring about 0.96875" diameter, characteristic of Decca / MCA pressings, not to mention the '2' in the deadwax which indicated Pinckneyville pre-1973 when the stamped ◈-P-◈ first showed up? Columbia pressings of Atlantic product by this point merely copied the label copy used by Specialty - right down to the 'SP' suffix. (Evidently all Columbia-pressed Atlantic LP's by then were for Record Club customers only.) The major difference, besides the deadwax, lies in the pressing rings: 2.703125" diameter for Columbia pressings, a "humped" ring plus smaller indented ring nearer to the spindle hole for Specialty pressings. Side 1 evidently was cut at Columbia's studios.
