Bought an Allman Brothers S/T today and it's a PR (printed on label)press. Everything else is as you would expect but there is a backward 'S' stamped in a circle on both sides. At first glance I thought it was the Monarch 'MR' stamp. Does anyone know what that stamp means?
Just had to share how this database was helpful for me recently, I saw a LZ1 on auction recently that had CT for plant code on the label and checking here I confirmed it was the early abbrev. for Columbia Terra Haute or CTH. My experience has recently been that early pressings for Atlantic that have been done by this plant and CSM on the west coast , have been fantastic sounding -very well done and revealing in all the early pressing ways (call it a hot stamper or whatever). This being a late sixties release and having the CT as opposed to CTH I figure it just might be a nice early pressing, and oh yeah -it is, the sound is very live and revealing in a way I had never heard on a GP cut or the new remaster. It has the seventies label design and of course a Broadway address, but my thinking is that it is possible that copies of this piece of vinyl exist with the brown and maroon label as well (I like to think so anyway). I know those go for good money, but I was trying to be conservative and luckily won this at around 25$ -condition is in the VG++ range and thankfully play quality is even better so IMO a nice score anyway, and definitely not doable without the handy dandy code info!
Maybe I missed it but what is the meaning of capitol E.A.S.T. stamped into the north, south, east and west portion of label near the spindle hole of some records?
I have a few question about Monarch pressings. I have two copies of David Crosby "If I Could Only Remember My Name". Both are Monarch pressings with the matrix details below: Copy A - Label: ST-A-712107-MO - Matrix Side 1: (Artisan "Drum" Symbol) ST-A-712107-A MO (MR) Δ15665 AT W - Matrix Side 2: (Artisan "Drum" Symbol) ST-A-712108-A MO (MR) (Delta with "\" strikethrough)15665-X AT W Copy B - Label: ST-A-712107-MO - Matrix Side 1: (Artisan "Drum" Symbol) ST-A-712107-A MO (MR) Δ15665 (3X) AT W - Matrix Side 2: (Artisan "Drum" Symbol) ST-A-712108-A MO (MR) (Delta with "\" strikethrough)15665-X AT W My first question is, due to the "-A" on both sides am I to deduce these are both first pressings? Also, what does the "(3X)" indicate on Side 1 of Copy B? Thanks!
That -A- actually refers to Atlantic Records. This thread will explain it all. Very informative. http://forums.stevehoffman.tv/threa...ls-and-deadwax-what-do-the-codes-mean.285080/
Yes, I know this thread well. Lots of info to absorb. Actually, I am certain the "-A" refers to the 1st lacquer so I guess that answers that questions. I was just looking for confirmation. On Copy B, it seems they used 1st Lacquer, 3rd stamper. Still not sure what the "X" in the "(3X)" indicates.
I don't have the actual lps to check deadwax, but I have seen two of these like this from CA lately and wondered what would the better bet be on where it was made? MO or CSM or..? and what does it usually mean on these lps that are plain ol' missing the plant code on the labels? There is an additional RS 13653 and then 13654.... ?
3X probably means it was a third cut. Sometimes after going into production they decided something needed change. In all likelihood the non-3x is the first. The same can be found on Zep II where the first RL Side 2 cut is the narrow deadwax, the second RL cut was done to address playback problems and has a (2) in the wax. REPL or RE means it is a replacement cut also. Still don't know that the digits at the end of the AT matrix numbers mean, e.g., -AA, -EE, etc. @W.B. do you have a handle on this or the mystical world of Columbia substampers?
I don't know the reason for this, but I have noticed a majority of Presswell records have a single cutting letter (-A), while Monarch's have two (-AA) and RI's have three (-AAA). Usually, the second and third letters are fainter, and to my eyes appear to be added later, after the lacquer was cut.
Maybe there is only one lacquer cut. Do these also have a 'LW' in the deadwax that designated LongWear Plating Company? There was probably one lacquer cut.. sent to plating at LongWear and then mother or substampers were sent to each of the three plants for regular pressing. Therefore they have the extra letter(s) to designate where they were destined.???? Speculation only...
Thats my take, they're added later - onto metal. The bold information is cut into the lacquer itself.
It makes sense. Clearly on many Atlantic/Atco pressings the primary dead wax scribing is identical on each but has various little additions that are unique to a particular pressing.
Makes sense. I just compared my two RL Zep II cuts of Side 2: the first is -AA, the second -CC. It leaves a question though, where is stamper designated? For instance, A is Presswell, AA is Monarch. If Monarch gets a new stamper, what is it called, AB?
So yesterday I looked up those additional numbers and they are 'supposedly' mono numbers, I say supposedly because it seems a matter of fact that different sources/people will say or write information that conflicts with other info. One source says Monarch only pressed records and didn't cut lacquers, another says they did mastering as well (I'm assuming here that if you do mastering then you would cut lacquer, or maybe they meant plating and not mastering). Some of the 'conflicting info' I come across may not really exist as one may be focused on lp pressings and the other focused on 7"45s. The deal with this is that I am just assuming with all the record production observers that pass through here, that there might be someone more familiar with this scenario with regards to lps. A link or a search yesterday showed me a decent site that had similar info as in this thread all nicely laid out etc. in chart form, but when I moved around on the site it became obvious that 45 production was the focus there. They didn't have as complete a list of plants in their Atco plant code list. One thing that was mentioned there was that if there is no plant code then the record (45 I'm assuming) would have been made at Columbia Pittman. A hard and fast rule? Would this method be transposed to lp production? Could it mean Columbia in general, including Terra Haute and Santa Maria?? The extra numbers in the above label are either in error or used for a reason. I am simply assuming some people around here have seen or have owned this particular pressing -or come across another that has the same issue. I only get into it at all because it may be possible to understand a general rule of thumb for why a label within this particular context would be missing a part of info that is typically ALWAYS there for the most part -the plot thickens with this one as the extra RS numbers mean what exactly? I did have a copy of Physical Graffitti that had no plant code and it was a RI as far as I could tell because it had at least 3 characters in the trail off on all four sides. The record above is on Ebay right now and I did ask about the deadwax -the response: Hi, Side 1 has: ST-RS-712189 CCCC Rolling Stones Records Side 2 has: ST-RS-712190 EEEE Roing Stones Records Can't find any other markings. So, this does help I guess but I can't see from this reply if or what characters are lighter and maybe the seller can't look hard enough to spot the other info that may or may not be there, like the Artisan drum, AT or whatnot. The fourth character to me, if not related to a specific plant getting a metal part from the orig. lacquer plating might mean that they made a new part at RI and that last one is really light?? I def. don't know. I have followed the thing about A , AA or AAA and that is well documented and I think it is obvious that the letters start out being made in the lacquer and then at some point are etched in metal in a sequence which I suppose would relate to the plant getting the part. This sellers reply reminds me that I think I have seen more than 3 before. As far as lps are concerned, I don't think this could get to the point of AB or combos of different characters as that did seem like something I read that was related to a count system related to 45s. -but I obviously don't know. It does get a little daunting when the anomolies just spark a posting of a link or a conjecture that conflicts with what is said elsewhere, either on this forum or wherever. So a no reply can be better in that respect, I suppose. I guess I am just trying to toss my 2 cents in to pull more info into this thread. Atco/Atlantic was a biggee and they got even bigger for awhile and the information about this particular company and their practices does come in handy when looking at other WB product etc.. It is all the more interesting that it relates to the combination of two technologies like record pressing and printing. Somewhere here and there I have seen the conjectures about why MO records typically sound better and I can only observe that like any mass production scenario there will usually be those that rise to the top for firing on all cylinders properly and getting it right -more so on average than the others. I'm sure the reality is that they obviously were that top dog for the latter half of the heyday (late '60s thru the mid 70s), but with the business of pressing records there would have to have been an evolution involving the sharing of related information and technology among plants. I have a spectacular sounding copy of LA Woman that has the Artisan symbol on it, no plant code on the label and all I know is that it is not a MO, but it sounds amazing, so obviously although MOs can usually be counted on, killer discs come from other places as well. How a plant got started from scratch would be an interesting story because from what I can tell it does seem like an industry proud of it's proprietary techniques. Information would have to mostly be spread via personnel being lured away from already existing facilities. I would guess that MO had some better personnel that at one time early on were seasoned vets in this industry that were lured out to the west coast to work there -considering the weather and better pay, who wouldn't go for that. It really is an art form though ... too bad big business pulls the strings.
@W.B. (or anyone)-- Decoding help needed: this is ACDC Back in Black, Specialty. Which numbers correspond to lacquer/father/mother/stamper? SM is? Gracias. Matrix / Runout (Side One Runout Variant 1): ST-A-804517-A MASTERDISK RL SP 0-2 SM3-4 Matrix / Runout (Side Two Runout Variant 1): ST-A-804518-A SP MASTERDISK RL 0-1 SM4-3 Matrix / Runout (Side One Runout Variant 2): ST-A-804517-B MASTERDISK RL SP 0-1 SM1-2 Matrix / Runout (Side Two Runout Variant 2): ST-A-804518-A SP MASTERDISK RL 0-1 SM4-1 Matrix / Runout (Side One Runout Variant 3): ST-A-804517-B MASTERDISK RL SP 0-1 SM 3-2 Matrix / Runout (Side Two Runout Variant 3): ST-A-804518-A SP MASTERDISK RL 0-1 SM 4-1 Matrix / Runout (Side One Runout Variant 4): ST-A-804517-A MASTERDISK RL SP 0-2SM2-1 Matrix / Runout (Side Two Runout Variant 4): ST-A-804518-A SP MASTERDISK RL 0-1 SM1 3 Matrix / Runout (Side One Runout Variant 5): ST-A-804517-C MASTERDISK RL SP 0-1 SM3-2 Matrix / Runout (Side Two Runout Variant 5): ST-A-804518-C SP 0-1 SM3-1
Does anyone know the pressing plant code SH? I got a pink label copy of Allman Brothers at Fillmore East today. This side A label: ST-CAP-712223 SH. This is side A deadwax: ST-CAP-712223 C AT-PG PR(AM). I can figure the meaning of all but the SH plant code, and the (AM) in the deadwax.
This page in Discogs has a lot of pressing plant codes listed: http://www.discogs.com/user/mossinterest Info on the Atlantic family doesn't seem to reveal anything new to this thread. However, this page also includes a list of London Records label suffices. Included in that list is SH for Shelley Products, Ltd., Huntington Station, NY. Suppose my copy may have been contracted out to that plant by Capricorn.
I have also wondered about the PR (I usually find it in the 12:00 position across from the matrix upsidedown) Not to be confused with a PR close in with the martrix #s which can indicate Presswell I have a Jackson Browne S/T Presswell copy on Asylum White Label (MFG By Atlantic) that has this in the runout: AB in front of the Matrix #s on Side One, and DDV in front of the Matrix #s on Side Two The AB are merged where the right side of the A forms the back stem of the B Both have AT (Atlantic mastering) after the main Matrix #s and PR upsidedown at 12:00 Any idea what the AB and DDV mean? Also as to the PR meaning? (Philips/PRC metal?) Anyone ever figure out what that elongated W near the AT means (I have only seen this on Atlantic labels)?
Re: Unknown deadwax codes : W sometimes with dots near it. Does anyone have ever seen another letter than a W? In my research to the meaning of the letter W here are two stories: 1) When I was with Tom Dowd I asked him about the letter W and he told me he had no idea. This is in accordance with a 45 that Tom cut (TD handwritten in the deadwax). The letter W wasn’t engraved in the deadwax. 2) When I visited Atlantic Studio’s I had the opportunity to talk to Dennis King. I showed him a 45 with DK as well as the letter W engraved in the deadwax. He confirmed that he engraved the letter W but he didn’t know the meaning of it.
Interesting... Weird, but interesting Seems to be an AT thing.... Anyone else have access to someone from the AT engineering crew? Thanks for chipping in!
Re: Unknown deadwax codes : W sometimes with dots near it. Tom Dowd advised me to contact Phil Iehle as he was the technical supervisor at Atlantic and that’s what I did. Phil told me that there were problems in plating mainly depending on the lacquer brands, whether conditions and locations. So he wanted to mark the lacquer brand by engraving a code. The codes were W: Audiodisc X: Transco Z: Soundcraft Personally I have seen X as well as Z. Furthermore, Phil’s cutting can be recognize by a dot under the AT as well as the letter “P” near the letter P. The “eye” of the P gets smaller and smaller and ended up as a simple stripe. The P or stripe wasn’t always engraved. There is another recording/cutting engineer by the name of Adrian Barber. His cuttings can be recognized by the 3 dots above and one dot below the letter W. Also, he engraved AT with sometimes an unusual long legged T.
I have a record with aB in deadwax as well, it's a -B/-C stereo cutting of a 1959 Charles Mingus record, probably from the late '60s. According to the findings of Rene that I quoted above, "aB" (mine looks more like "cB") could actually be the signature of Atlantic's second cutting engineer, Adrian Barber.
