I've seen that mentioned a couple times here (or maybe you have just mentioned it a couple times) but I'm curious where that understanding came from? I don't understand why it would be the case.
I haven't seen anyone discuss it on this forum, but on other forums. More specifically in discussions about SME arms that employ the knife edge bearings. I also did some testing myself. Using a test record, I did a resonance test with a 2m Bronze and it came in at 8hz (close to the calculated resonance frequency of 7.4). Doing the same test with a Soundsmith MIMC star (compliance of 10), I got the same result of 8hz (off from the calculated resonance frequency of 10.7hz). While my observations aren't close to scientific, it did make me curious. It would be nice to get a definitive answer about this. I guess the only way to find out would be for me to buy an ART9, but i'm still licking my wounds from taking a hit on the Soundsmith which didn't work out.
That is odd with the Soundsmith since it is spec'd as a low compliance cartridge, while the Ortofon is clearly upper mid level. Big difference in cartridge weights, but that's all part of the calculation. What test record did you use, or did you record the output and analyze the resonant frequency? The HiFi News test record is widely reported to be inaccurate in the test frequencies. Anyway, I can't think of any reason why an arm would have a different resonance because of the bearing type unless there was some damping employed, which I guess could be the case if the knife edge used a radius instead of sharp edge, so introduced some friction for damping. Or includes oil in the bearing. Have you talked much about your MIMC experience here and why it didn't work out? I'll have to do a search, seems like there is a lot of love for it.
I was using a Shure obstacle course record, which uses a visual guideline for checking compliance, not the best method, this I know. I think the possibility of their being a difference has to do with the way the knife edge dampens resonance. I did detail my issue with the Soundsmith in another thread. I went as far as 1.) sending the cart in to Soundsmith thinking it was defective 2.) sending the cart over to Lounge audio to voice my preamp to the cart. Ultimately I think that my turntable (which can have a dark tone) did not play well with the cart (known for its warmth).
I have the Shure record too and it is pretty accurate in the frequencies, though goes in steps. The thing I don't understand is that the knife edge by design should have less damping since there is close to zero friction, that's the whole point of using the knife edge, along with more stability and zero bearing clearance, unless they have purposely designed some friction in. But no biggie, just thought it was interesting.
Yea, it’s a bit over my head. It would be nice if the mfg of the tonearms provided this information, and how the design relates to compliance matching.
Did you use the same headshell and similar hardware for both cartridges? Some people use those heavy thumbscrews with Soundsmith cartridges. Granted, it would take quite a bit of mass to lower the resonance frequency from 10.7 Hz to 8, but if your record is the same as mine, it steps from 10 to 8 Hz, so not very precise, could be either, you really need to record a drop test and analyze it to get a precise value, these test records are generally just to check that it's in range, not to verify compliance and mass specs. Or to make judgements on internet stories about knife edge bearings
I am looking forward to your comparison of the DL-S1 and the ART9. I am also curious how the DL-S1 compares with the ART7. I have both an ART7 and an ART9. They have totally different character from one another. I have heard the the DL-S1 and the ART7 are very similar because they are both constructed with non-magnetic cores.
Yes, when one came up at the right price missing it's diamond I jumped at it. It looks like we may be able to fit a micro ridge on the original cantilever though time will tell. Even if you ART7 is a little better than the DL-S1 (which I've read it is somewhere) I still would have got this as I've been curious about the DL-S1 for quite a few years. One of those legendary and rarish carts.... Also would love to hear a DL-1000A at some point
The ART 9 should be ~ 8Hz also if you consider the total mass of your arm/cart combo ~22g and dynamic compliance of the ART9 @ 31.5cu @ 10Hz. I ran my ART9 with a similar mass tonearm and it sounded great new, phenomenal when dialed in. It isn't surprising that the MIMC star sounded too rich- suspended tables are known for a rich, warm sound and adding a moving iron cartridge with rich sonic characteristics is too much of a good thing. The ART9 is essentially neutral sounding but will sound slightly warm and rich on your turntable / tonearm but have more midrange trasnparency and high end air and be completely clean and refined. It has a sound that is very likeable.
Thanks for the reply. I took some time to go through the whole thread. I was most interested in @toddrhodes experience, he is using a 750L, and the 750 series share the same mass as the 850, so I should be safe. I found a lightly used 9 on Audiogon that I was able to haggle down to a safe "try it out" price, so the trigger has been pulled. I agree with your assessment of the issues with the Soundsmith, I never heard of suspended tables having a warm signature until I bothered to look, I tend to learn things the hard way and am chalking this experience up to that. With the Soundsmith sounding too polite, and my 2m bronze being a bit grainy and sometimes shrill, I am hoping the ART9 will be the sweet spot.
The ART9 trounces even the 2M black in sound quality, especially refinement, dynamics and lack of any grain whatsoever. Hope you get a good one!
Update. So I got the ART9 mounted up and setup at about 80%, and so far it sounds great! It’s just about exactly what I was looking for, not rolled off and not a surface noise/grain machine, nice an neutral. Resonance test with the Shure record comes in at 8hz like the other cartridges, nothing weird going on. I helped lower the mass a little by getting a Yamamoto c/f headshell, and getting some nylon screws. Just a heads up, with the HS-4 headshell, I needed to get some 20mm long screws for mounting, the Soundsmith screws are bit too short. I had to listen through headphones, but I did some A/B testing against my Node2i/MQA rig. The phono rig w/ the Art9 sounds better, more involving and a larger soundstage. Can’t wait to be able to crank it on my speakers. Alignment is dialed in, but VTA/AS/azimuth need to be fine tuned. My preamp is out for service and i’m stuck with my P6 pre-in at 52db gain/100 ohms load. It does sound like it could use more gain and a slightly higher loading
congrats! are you hearing the huge floor to ceiling soundestaget yet? 56db min if you can get it, once broken in mine really sang with 66db. try the VTA at 1/2mm tail up if you can, max VTF for the first couple hundred hours.
I was stuck listening on headphones, but I'll find out tonight. The P6 is fixed at 52db, once I get the Lounge back I can bump it to 65db. Thanks for the tip on the VTA/VTF, right now i'm about 1/2mm tail down with nominal (1.8g) vtf.
Yes, that is correct. The Special Line Contact or SLC diamond used in all the top end AT cartridges are lighter in mass than the Microline (ML). They accomplish this by using a rectangular shank diamond rather than a square shank.
So it's interesting to me how the rectangular shank is better than the square shank. Unfortunately, some people swear that the 760 is above the 740 for marketing purposes rather than an improved stylus.
The OC9/III and ART9 both use a square shank SLC stylus, but they have been moving to the rectangular shank on the newer models, such as the brand new OC9XSL, and the VM760SLC mentioned above.
Sorry, but that is incorrect. The OC9/III, ART7, ART9, VM760SLC, and the ART1000 ALL use a rectangular shank "SLC" diamond. The rectangular shank lowers tip mass and improves tracking performance - according to Audio Technica. This directly from the Audio Technica cartridge catalog for 2017.
Audio Technica should really correct their website then ... AT-ART9 Type Magnetic Core Moving Coil Mounting 1/2” centers Frequency Response 15 - 50,000Hz Body Material Aluminium Channel Separation 30dB (1kHz) Output Channel Balance 0.5dB (1kHz) Output Voltage 0,5 mV (1 kHz, 5 cm/sec) Vertical Tracking Angle 23° Vertical Tracking Force Range 1.6 - 2.0g (1.8g standard) Stylus Shape Special Line Contact Stylus Stylus Curvature Radius 40 x 7 µH Stylus Construction Nude square shank Cantilever 0.26 mm Ø solid boron Coil Impedance 12Ω (1kHz) Coil Inductance 25µH (1kHz) DC Resistance 12Ω Static Compliance 35×10-6cm/dyne Dynamic Compliance 18×10-6cm/dyne (100Hz) Terminal Pins Brass Recommended Load Impedance Min 100Ω Weight 8.5g Dimensions 17.3 (H) x 17.0 (W) x 25.6 (L) mm Replacement Stylus When the stylus is to be replaced, replace the entire cartridge. Take the used cartridge to your Audio-Technica Authorised Service Centre. The new cartridge, or any other model which is desired among the line-up of MC cartridges sold by Audio-Technica, are available at the stylus replacement price. Accessories Included 1 non magnetic screw driver; 1 brush; 2 washers; 2 x 12 mm mounting screws; 2 Nuts; 2 x 18 mm mounting screws; 1 plastic protector; 1 set of PCOCC Lead Wires (AT6101)
Indeed they should. I inspected my ART9 after reading the catalog and confirmed it indeed has a rectangular shank.
OK. I just got finished inspecting my AT-OC9/III, ART7, ART9, and VM760 SLC to check to see if they all have a rectangular shank diamond. They in fact do. They all look like the exact same stylus to me. Of course the 760SLC has slighty different cantilever. The diamonds are oriented with the long sides in parallel with the cantilever. I cannot inspect an ART-1000 because I do not own one at present. So, the website does need to be corrected. The catalog is correct.
Assume you have a nice microscope, is it connected to your computer, can you share any pictures, always fun to see the diamonds closeup? That's a nice array of modern cartridges, guess you are a pretty big Audio Technica fan, do you have any opinions yet on the new OC9X series, especially the SL model? Could be a nice step up from the OC9/III, but doesn't seem much different except for the threaded body and some other minor updates, never know, the OC9/III is getting pretty cheap now, well below $500, be interesting to see the pricing on the new models, I already see a couple places advertising some good deals, though they don't have stock yet.