Audiophiles don't really want NEUTRAL. Audiophiles don't really like NEUTRAL.

Discussion in 'Audio Hardware' started by Steve Hoffman, Nov 6, 2010.

  1. Monsieur Gadbois

    Monsieur Gadbois Senior Member

    Location:
    Hotel California
    Question is, does Shure V15 still measured flat with the proper capacitive loading as you indicated? If not, what's the argument, you like colored sound.


    *p.s. I believe Vidiot measured flat with normal capacitive loading on his setup.

     
  2. Gary

    Gary Nauga Gort! Staff

    Location:
    Toronto
    Eh? No need to sacrifice anything for realism, is there? I'd think that a lot of people would think that 3-D in music is the ultimate and what really counts!

    And 3-D is the basis of all audiophile reissues, isn't it? Not just added treble and bass slam. :laugh:
     
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  3. blue

    blue Mastering rules

    Location:
    sweet spot
    You're probably right, that everyone has a hot button, but Isn't the difference between a "just" perfect reproduction of single technical aspects and that snap, that it get's "real" and "lifelike" in terms of 3D (and dynamics), what it's all about at the end (and not easy and cheap to achieve)? That's the moment when one doesn't think anymore of "treble extension", "bass impact", "resolution", "tonality". This was already achieved before...IMO what Steve mentioned is the step to just the "music" as the experience, when you don't care about any technical aspects anymore :love:
     
  4. John Buchanan

    John Buchanan I'm just a headphone kind of fellow. Stax Sigma

    Jeff, Steve's comment included "the sound remained pretty much neutral, but wow what a difference".

    I would have said that Steve discovered an added facet to the recording that he hadn't heard before, but not necessarily at the expense of neutrality.
     
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  5. Metoo

    Metoo Forum Hall Of Fame

    Location:
    Spain (EU)
    Please add the overuse of aspirin to this list. Aspirin is toxic to the inner ear.
     
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  6. konut

    konut Prodigious Member. Thank you.

    Location:
    Whatcom County, WA





    Ok Steve, so far you've described bloom as " mid range magic" and the experience you've had with the tube preamp giving that 3-D dimensionality with the Dean Martin recording. Assuming, for the moment, that these are the same thing, would it be fair to say that this effect is dependant on the particular synergy of a system? Did that preamp deliver this effect on every system you tried it on(did you try it on another system?)? The point I'm trying to make, and the experience that I've had, is that the effect of 3-D sound is dependant on, not only linear componentry, but maintaining phase correct integrity in the speaker. What I'm postulating is that the tube effect is somehow interacting with the not completely accurate phase angle in the speaker's crossover, thus delivering that corrected 3-D sound. Does that make any sense at all?
    I shall have to seek out that CD and give it a spin.
    It has been my experience that the very best tube gear is suspiciously similar to excellent solid state gear in that it is very linear and is distortion free throughout its frequency range.
     
  7. Metoo

    Metoo Forum Hall Of Fame

    Location:
    Spain (EU)
    That would depend in part on the volume you normally listen at. Lower volumes can use a little bass boost. This is the logic behind the now-extinct 'loudness' button. It has to do with how our ears respond to sound at different volumes.

    On the other hand, it could be a case of being accustomed to playing the music on the 'spicy' setting. As is normal, when going down to flat it would, at first, sound a little dull, until your ears got used to it.
     
  8. Steve Hoffman

    Steve Hoffman Your host Your Host Thread Starter

    For the sake of time, let's agree that an entire system needs synergy. Everything matters, speaker placement, every thing.

    What I am talking about is not just spacial cues, but resolution. In this case, the flawless reproduction of the midband that is crucial to music reproduction.

    To make it easier to understand, do this. Unhook one of your speakers or turn your balance control to the left or right. (If you unhook, put an equal load in your amp or it will blow up...):) OK, now, you have no spacial cues to worry about, just one speaker. Get that old standby CREEDENCE CLEARWATER REVIVAL "Fortunate Son". Hopefully you have the SACD or vinyl version that I mastered for Analogue Productions. 'Kay? Listen to the drums in the intro. Notice the echo going back after each drum whack? I've written about this before. Switch your stuff around until you can clearly hear the echo trail after each drum hit. You should be able (even in mono on one speaker) to hear the each echo trail last until the next drum hit with no falloff. It should be intense. If it's not, you're getting gypped. If it is, try and make it more intense by switching out some tubes or some wire or whatever. You'll see, it never sounds the same, always changing. So this has nothing to do with ear cues from speaker placement, but it has everything to do with your system being able to reproduce everything with full accuracy, nothing more, nothing less. "Fortunate Son" is DRENCHED in reverb on the drums. It's a perfect test for D/A converter differences, etc. Works wonders. Engineer Russ Gary really poured the drums with overkill echo. You'd be surprised at the reverb trail drop off on some gear. Yikes....

    A system can be neutral and accurate while at the same time be able to reproduce real life sounds when needed (if the music is so designed) with careful system matchng. But it helps to know what the music SHOULD sound like and checking other systems is a way to find out what you have (or haven't) been a-missin'.
     
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  9. Jim T

    Jim T Forum Resident

    Location:
    Mars
    I recorded the www.tarawinds.org yesterday afternoon and came home after hearing some good sound through my Sony 7506s ( i know what they are and they are not AKG 701's. Santa may be listening). I used a pair of Rode NT-1As in ORTF and 3 pencil omni's in a DECCA TREE (which I love by the way) and until I moved my speakers 8 feet apart min did the sound begin to agree with my cans. 7 feet was close, but 8 feet seemed to produce the magic I was looking for. I fed the Rode's into my Sony DAT for back up and my DECCA TREE into my laptop with Sony Sound Forge. I only did redbook yesterday as it was only a practice session and I was trying to burn more with my trial of Sony CD Architect to see if I liked it enough to buy. I think it is the best CD burning program I have used so far.

    I sitll have a long way to go, but progress is happening for sure. December has a number of concerts to be recorded for real. Speaker placement is something I will be agonizing over much more in the future.
     
  10. LeeS

    LeeS Music Fan

    Location:
    Atlanta
    Jim,

    Do you have any pics of your Decca tree arrangement?
     
  11. Vidiot

    Vidiot Now in 4K HDR!

    Location:
    Hollywood, USA
    Hey! I'm flattered that Steve read something I wrote enough to create a whole thread! :)

    In my case, I chalked it down to a mastering thing. I just went in and knocked the highs up about 1.5 dB @ 10K, and it sounded fine to me. Not a big deal.

    I actually do prefer neutral in terms of the playback system not adding or subtracting anything from the work done by the mastering engineer. The problem for me is, if the system is veering away from neutral, the effects are going to be unpredictable at best -- making some things sound a little better, and some a little worse.

    Me, I'm firmly in the "just gimme some truth" category. [And I agree with Grant that many of the 1990s Rhino-mastered CDs are a little too bright. Still.]
     
  12. Jim T

    Jim T Forum Resident

    Location:
    Mars
    I have used mic stands to simulate the positioning at this point, but I am about to embark upon a construction project of making one that will screw apart with piping that I will have painted flat black. I also believe that I will have the bottom vertical section be 6 feet with various threaded extenders that will be 3, and 4 feet to start with to get the height I need. The top "T" length is 6 feet wide running at 9 and 3 O'clock with the leg running 3 feet out to the center 12 O'clock position of the horseshoe arrangement of the ensembles.

    The vertical center pipe will be threaded into a 6" square by 2" aluminum block threaded to accept 4 extender floor legs pipes in a "math + sign" arrangement. I will have to decide uptimately how long each of those pipes must be for secure stability and what weight to add to hold it firmly in place the higher I decide to go.

    The fact that this will be portable pretty much eliminates astetics. I'm thinking that inch and a half pipe should be stable enough and be portable enough as well. The prices of premade units is beyond my budget. One vertical pipe should be less obtrusive than 3 large mic stands...with the good ones that aren't cheap either. All the piping is from good old Home Depot. My son can do the painting for me. I will do pics when finished.

    And I thought this was going to be fun and real easy. Ya, right! Bascially a nice Saturday project. I'll have the baseblock done at a machine shop to make sure I start off square.
     
  13. John Buchanan

    John Buchanan I'm just a headphone kind of fellow. Stax Sigma

    I'm a man on a mission now!
     
  14. Yah, this and the Dean Martin "Capitol Collectors Series" :righton:
     
  15. proufo

    proufo Forum Resident

    Thanks, Steve!

    Any similar acid test with less enjoyable music, or better, music from a test CD?
     
  16. TONEPUB

    TONEPUB Senior Member

    Location:
    Portland, Oregon
    So this is an admission that cables do indeed make a difference in system sound? :)
     
  17. Gary

    Gary Nauga Gort! Staff

    Location:
    Toronto
    Are you saying that cables do indeed make a difference when you review equipment or music?

    :winkgrin:
     
  18. shokhead

    shokhead Head shok and you still don't what it is. HA!

    Location:
    SoCal, Long Beach
    Only if you hear it.
     
  19. dkmonroe

    dkmonroe A completely self-taught idiot

    Location:
    Atlanta
    But is it really necessary that all agree what neutral sounds like? From the experiment Vidiot explains in the post that Steve cites, it would appear that "neutral" is a measurable point regardless of the vagaries of individual hearing. The problem seems to be not whether "neutral" exists, but do people know what it means to establish whether or not their systems or components are "neutral."
     
  20. TONEPUB

    TONEPUB Senior Member

    Location:
    Portland, Oregon
    Always have. Not a huge diff, but noticeable.
     
  21. Steve Hoffman

    Steve Hoffman Your host Your Host Thread Starter

    Well, of course, a noticeable difference. I think you're confusing me with some of the members here.
     
  22. Steve Hoffman

    Steve Hoffman Your host Your Host Thread Starter

    A quick and dirty way to hear what your system is doing is to run some pink noise through it off of a Stereophile Test CD or something. Neutral noise playback should be well balanced from DC to Light. Run some at a moderate volume. Got it on? Now, do stuff like move your head or turn or whatever. Hear how the tonality changes? Yikes. Never stays constant. Even when you breathe in and out the sound changes. Taking it a step further, try the pink noise with and without your grill cloth on. Or, if you have speaker controls, try and adjust until it is balanced.

    It can ruin your day. Nothing is really neutral but try and get the tonality of the noise to be as balanced as possible and you'll be better off. If you find you're off in the mids or top or whatever, investigate what could be causing it. Biggest culprit is prob. your speakers. If you have another brand, switch them in and see what happens...
     
  23. Gary

    Gary Nauga Gort! Staff

    Location:
    Toronto
    Thank goodness. :D

    Seriously, I remember very well that you know there are differences. I would hazard a guess that it would make your job much more difficult otherwise.

    It's like Steve and his work. I'm sure that the correct wires makes it a lot easier in mastering music.
     
  24. Far-out...I've always set-up my stereo with pink noise & never told anyone for fear they would think I was crazy. It's a great way for me to hear balance & frequency matching between speakers & ambiance in the room. Wicked...
     

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