Avengers: Endgame - April 26, 2019*

Discussion in 'Visual Arts' started by Parachute Woman, Dec 7, 2018.

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  1. GregM

    GregM The expanding man

    Location:
    Bay Area, CA
    Regarding your post above, humor between the avengers is the great drama/entertainment. Part of that is bickering and fighting, but it's supposed to lead to the real dramatic fight scenes with the bad guys. That never happened in Civil War. The fight scenes were about hero vs hero instead of hero vs villain. Anyway, I think I've driven that into the ground. If no one wants to acknowledge the point, so be it.

    It made no sense that Stark, who worked with the military industrial complex his whole life and knew full well that Bucky was brainwashed when he was sent on his assassination missions, would go after Bucky. Yes, if you accept that, you accept that Cap would then defend Bucky, but then you're faced with an even deeper misstep when Stark decides to keep fighting Cap. Maybe this could be explained by emotion if Stark had seen his mother killed in real time, but seeing decades-old footage in a transparent attempt to make Stark angry, and then letting himself be ruled by that anger? Total nonsense and a big let down for what had been set up as a hero vs villian ending.
     
  2. It’s also because Cap picked Bucky over Stark. One friendship over another. It’s not about sense but the emotional response. You haven’t lost it with the wrong person at the wrong time? It happens in real life. Again, it’s not about logic or sense but about resentment, anger and other stark (pardon the pun) that Stark has buried and hasn’t dealt with in all of these years.
     
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  3. BeatleJWOL

    BeatleJWOL Senior Member

    Tony is not exactly the most well-balanced and reasonable of the Avengers. This has been established.

    Hero vs. villain is not the only valid kind of story that can be told. Period. You might think it is but that doesn't make it true. It should also be mentioned that the original Civil War story in the comics also pits hero against hero, and both sides believe they are right.
     
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  4. Bobby Buckshot

    Bobby Buckshot Heavy on the grease please

    Location:
    Southeastern US
    Cap's Civil War - better than Ultron, not as good as IW or WS. Or even the first Cap movie. Maybe End Game ties up some loose ends and moves the story along in grand fashion. Going to be hard to follow IW for sure - one of the best action movies I've seen in a long time despite some minor issues. I'm just hoping it's at least as good, fingers crossed it's actually better.

    Edit: Loved that Red Skull was on that faraway/parallel planet in IW, acting all humble and whatnot. Wonder if he makes an appearance in EG, or if they use other nemeses in such ways to add layers to the story.
     
  5. GregM

    GregM The expanding man

    Location:
    Bay Area, CA
    I never said it's the only valid kind of story but hero vs villain is the epitome of the superhero genre. To me at least, if the plot isn't driving to that kind of showdown, it's a bit of a waste. And in the case of Civil War, it was driving toward that and instead the villians were all dead.

    The fundamental difference between Cap and Stark is that Stark is an inventor, a creator, and Cap is a soldier, a follower. I think this is very significant and the root of their conflict, but for it to result in a derivative fight scene as the climax of a movie does short shrift to the characters and the audience alike. Even factoring in Stark's narcissism, anger issues, instability or whatever you want to call it (I'd call it the same thing that makes him a driven inventor), it still doesn't explain why he'd a) attack Bucky who had no free will in what he did and then b) attack Cap who is one of his strongest allies and played no role whatsoever in the assassination. Basically the film unravelled into poppycock in that scene.
     
  6. Jim B.

    Jim B. Senior Member

    Location:
    UK
    I think the ones that are not reliant on powers could be replaced (they have been in the comics as well) - so you could get a new Cap, a new Iron Man/Woman etc. Obviously I don't think that would work with Thor and Hulk as they are the people, but even so there have been other Thors (Beta Ray Bill, the current female version) and even other Hulks.

    So there is no reason why you couldn't have new versions of any of these people.
     
  7. Quadboy

    Quadboy Forum Resident

    Location:
    Leeds,England
    There is the fact that Cap somehow knew about Bucky slaying Stark's parents but didn't feel enough friendship with him to break it to him beforehand.
     
  8. Parachute Woman

    Parachute Woman Forum Resident Thread Starter

    Location:
    USA
    You did not 'eviscerate' my previous post. I stand by it. Captain America is a textbook Lawful Good character and Tony Stark is a textbook Chaotic Good character. What the MCU has done is deconstruct those character tropes because D&D alignments were created for two-dimensional Dungeons & Dragons constructs. Real human beings don't fit perfectly on the moral alignment because real human beings are more complicated than that. The MCU has tried to write characters that function more like real people would, and been successful at it IMO. Going into Civil War, one would assume that Cap would be the one on the side of the law and Tony would be the one against the accords. However, the audience was meant to be surprised when the reverse was true and the intrinsic values of each character were challenged by their life experiences, their relationships and the decisions they made as three-dimensional people able to make decisions and feel things that contradict their natural cores. That's the whole point of the movie.

    Captain America is not a follower. He is willing and able to take orders (as anyone, not just a soldier, should be able to do). But he is a born leader if ever there was one. You do realize that even Tony considered Cap to be the leader of the Avengers during their golden age, right? In Age of Ultron this conversation happens:

    Maria Hill (to Tony): Lab's all set up, boss.
    Tony (gesturing to Steve): Well, actually he's the boss. I just pay for everything and design everything and make everyone look cooler.

    His ego is a bit bruised, but he recognizes Cap's role on the team.
     
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  9. Bobby Buckshot

    Bobby Buckshot Heavy on the grease please

    Location:
    Southeastern US
    I don't want to go through the IW thread at the moment, but in that movie when Cap confronts Thanos there's a moment where Thanos looks amazed at Cap, making me as a viewer think there's something else involved with him where he could indeed have some sort of "power" not yet revealed. Kind of like how Star Lord was revealed to be part-god, it got me wondering about just what was transferred into the Captain to make Thanos look at him that way. Maybe it's nothing, but I've talked to others who noticed the same thing. Perhaps this was discussed ad nauseum already and I just missed it.
     
  10. Luke The Drifter

    Luke The Drifter Forum Resident

    Location:
    United States
    I agree with you that there is no reason they couldn't have new versions of these characters. But where the comics have to produce a lot of issues of Captain America, the MCU does not. For this particular Marvel fan, if they replace Steve Rogers with a new Cap I will be out. I understand that is not a problem with other folks. But it would be a shark jumping moment for me in the MCU. The same with the other major characters.
     
  11. Luke The Drifter

    Luke The Drifter Forum Resident

    Location:
    United States
    I love that moment. I took it as Thanos just being surprised to get as much resistance as he did from a mere mortal. He is not a god like Thor. He is not a "Hulk". He is not in a mechanical suit. He is seemingly just a man. If you swat Hawkeye out of the way, there is not much resistance. But Cap is a different story.
     
  12. Parachute Woman

    Parachute Woman Forum Resident Thread Starter

    Location:
    USA
    I agree. Sort of like how Cap was able to move Thor's hammer a little bit in Age of Ultron. He's just a man (with some "super soldier" serum), but he represents the very best of what humanity can be.
     
  13. Bobby Buckshot

    Bobby Buckshot Heavy on the grease please

    Location:
    Southeastern US
    Did he actually move it? I missed that. I did notice that Thor was actually a bit worried that Cap would be able to wield it.
     
  14. Parachute Woman

    Parachute Woman Forum Resident Thread Starter

    Location:
    USA
    Yes, just a little:



    At 1:20, the hammer squeaks as it wiggles a bit on the table. I think he probably could lift it in a battle situation, but alas it was destroyed. RIP Mjolnir.
     
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  15. Bobby Buckshot

    Bobby Buckshot Heavy on the grease please

    Location:
    Southeastern US
    Interesting. Then maybe it's possible he pretended he couldn't lift it? Eh, they probably won't explore that option though in EG I'm guessing.
     
  16. dkmonroe

    dkmonroe A completely self-taught idiot

    Location:
    Atlanta
    Cap is driven by sheer force of will and determination. It's what led him to be Captain America in the first place. It's his real superpower.
     
  17. dkmonroe

    dkmonroe A completely self-taught idiot

    Location:
    Atlanta
    It's not the kind of thing you can tell anyone at any time.
     
  18. Jim B.

    Jim B. Senior Member

    Location:
    UK
    He does have 'powers' from the super soldier serum though. He has increased strength, speed etc. I think Thanos was surprised by the increased strength and the force of will he was showing, a mark of respect, but I don't think there was anything 'secret' he was seeing (unless Cap is a Skrull!).

    But even though Cap has powers he has been replaced several times in the comics with other people taking up the name (like Bucky, Falcon and US Agent) so it's not a no-go idea in theory.
     
  19. Bobby Buckshot

    Bobby Buckshot Heavy on the grease please

    Location:
    Southeastern US
    I definitely think they're setting up Bucky as the next Cap and I'll be surprised if that doesn't happen in this particular universe of movies. I don't think they'll use Falcon, at least not yet. He's almost like an afterthought, at least at this stage.

    As far as other powers for Cap, I thought there was just something a little extra in that scene, but maybe it was edited to entice the viewer into thinking so. Thanos gave some level of respect to Iron Man, Star Lord, and Cap - am I missing anyone? Just makes me think that maybe there was another layer to Cap that was being teased and maybe they'll make something of it, maybe not. Still, am glad that IW was such a good movie after Ultron which I didn't like at all, gives EG some positive steam.
     
  20. dkmonroe

    dkmonroe A completely self-taught idiot

    Location:
    Atlanta
    I really, REALLY hope they don't do that re-cast the character thing in the MCU movies. Leave that stuff in the comic books. If Cap dies, let the office, so to speak, die with him. Bucky can keep being the Winter Soldier and the Falcon can keep being the Falcon.
     
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  21. Parachute Woman

    Parachute Woman Forum Resident Thread Starter

    Location:
    USA
    The thing is, Bucky was called the Winter Soldier during his decades of being used as a brainwashed assassin against his will. That's not his 'superhero alter-ego.' It's a mantle he probably wants to drop. They have also shown Bucky wielding Cap's shield on more than occasion:

    [​IMG]

    I'm a huge Steve Rogers fan, but I think I would be interested in seeing Steve's best friend take up the title as (a) a tribute to his fallen friend and (b) a chance to redeem himself for his past actions, even if they were done when he had no choice. I think that would make for an interesting story. There's also a big canonical relationship in the comic books between Bucky and Natasha Romanov/Black Widow that I think would be very intriguing to explore on screen. Sebastian Stan has spoken about his interest in that as well.

    The Black Widow/Hulk romance is one of the few black-eyes on the franchise, for me. I didn't think that worked at all. In general, I haven't been super into any of the MCU romances with the exception of Tony/Pepper, which I think works pretty well.
     
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  22. Luke The Drifter

    Luke The Drifter Forum Resident

    Location:
    United States
    I think/hope that showing Bucky with the shield was a not do those comic storylines, and I enjoyed them. But I am against anyone becoming Cap but Steve Rogers in the MCU.
     
  23. Chazro

    Chazro Forum Resident

    Location:
    West Palm Bch, Fl.
    As far as the good guys fighting each other goes, like I said, it's been a time-honored tradition for decades. The question I'm curious about is what is it in our human nature that inherently likes/wants our heroes to have a go at each other! Even in this historic dust-up, I didn't feel enough time was devoted to the actual BATTLES!;) I mean whole books could've been made of some of these fights! If you give it a close look, you'll see an attempt was made to have some of them battle their 'counterparts'. I definitely could've handled more Bat/Cap or Supes/Thor or WW/Hercules. Even some of the b-listers like The Witch/Zatanna or Arrow/Hawkeye or Flash/Quicksilver! Sad that a crossover like this isn't likely to ever happen again. Now THAT'S a movie I'd love to see!;)


    [​IMG]
     
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  24. 5th-beatle

    5th-beatle Forum Resident

    Location:
    Brazil
  25. 5th-beatle

    5th-beatle Forum Resident

    Location:
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    Last edited: Feb 3, 2019
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