Beatles meeting Oct '69, where's the tape?

Discussion in 'Music Corner' started by YpsiGypsy, Jul 16, 2018.

  1. Detroit Music Fan

    Detroit Music Fan Forum Resident

    Location:
    Detroit
    Paul writing a song for the Beatles to perform in their last recording sessions about Klein is about John, George and Ringo. It’s inescapable. Paul wouldn’t be singing about Klein if the other three hadn’t demanded he manage them. By all accounts, hiring Klein split them up as much as anything. You really think Paul can write a song about that, called “You Never Give Me Your Money,” and that the other three don’t take any affront to it at all, even privately? People who are already at their wits’ end with each other don’t work like that. It’s not a wonder it was their last gasp as a group.
     
    Louise Boat and BeatlesBop like this.
  2. Rfreeman

    Rfreeman Forum Resident

    Location:
    Lawrenceville, NJ
    I'd say George started the "bitching aboitbother Beatles in song" thing with Not Guilty and I Me Mine and Not Guilty, then Ringo upped the ante with Early 1970 and then John went into full 3rd grade put down mode with HDYS.

    Paul's Ram lyrics could have been about anyone - there were without doubt too many people preaching practices in 1971.
     
  3. theMess

    theMess Forum Resident

    Location:
    Kent, UK
    No, it was about Klein, like Paul said. Yes, the others hired him and that led to Paul writing about him, but it isn't about them, it's about the situation that resulted due to Klein. If the Beatles wanted to write about each other directly, they did; George already composed 'Wah-Wah', 'Run Of The Mill' and 'I Me Mine' by the time of Abbey Road, and actually recorded 'I Me Mine' with the group, Paul later wrote some lyrics aimed at John on 'Too Many People' and 'Dear Friend', Ringo wrote 'Early 1970' and John of course wrote 'How Do You Sleep', even with lyrical help from Klein and Yoko. Paul has no reason to lie about this; had he written 'YNGMYM' about the others he would have said.
     
    idreamofpikas, limoges, jricc and 4 others like this.
  4. Detroit Music Fan

    Detroit Music Fan Forum Resident

    Location:
    Detroit
    (Sarcasm)You’re right. The other Beatles didn’t mind Paul at all at the end there. Paul wasn’t airing their dirty laundry. That’s why they seem so happy and joyful during Let It Be. That’s why they followed up Abbey Road with so many other smash hits!(/sarcasm)

    Only one of your examples was really recorded with the Beatles and there’s nothing direct about “I Me Mine.” Also, face it, except for wanting him to sit there and play guitar, John and Paul didn’t care much what George thought.

    The point of discussion was what started John lashing out publicly and I pointed out Paul went public first. And he did. “You Never Give Me Your Money” is about as direct a message as he could’ve given the other Beatles, and, not a shocker, there was never another side of an original Beatle record ever again. Paul quit directly because of Klein. A song about Klein is a song about the other three. Period. It should be noted, Paul was right about Klein. He was a thief. See the Rolling Stones or George Harrison’s later career for details.
     
  5. muffmasterh

    muffmasterh Forum Resident

    Location:
    East London U.K
    Paul was right & John admits this in a filmed TV interview from 1973 " paul was right - again " i think is the quote from memory
     
    2141, Detroit Music Fan and theMess like this.
  6. Seltarb

    Seltarb Forum Resident

    I've always thought that John had Paul in his mind in a line from I Found Out (Plastic Ono Band, 1970):

    I've seen religion from Jesus to Paul
     
    limoges, Chris Bernhardt and coco77 like this.
  7. Dovetail7

    Dovetail7 Forum Resident

    At this point he wasn't making much sense and more or less continued on that path for the rest of his life!!?!?! n n
     
  8. Detroit Music Fan

    Detroit Music Fan Forum Resident

    Location:
    Detroit
    I think John made quite good sense in later years, particularly on this... “I just had to let it go...” Very poignant:

     
    Ken Wood likes this.
  9. czeskleba

    czeskleba Senior Member

    Location:
    Seattle
    I know that is a popular theory among fans, but it's never made sense to me. The song is essentially a diatribe about how drugs and religion disconnect people from their emotions and keep them passive. Lennon was fond of Karl Marx's statement that "religion is the opiate of the people" and this song seems to be a musical embodiment of that. I don't see how Paul McCartney would fit in there... he's obviously not a religious figure nor did he in any way dupe Lennon or disconnect him from his emotions. And if Lennon had meant it as a reference to McCartney, he probably would have said so at some point. There's lots of other Pauls in the world. In this case, I think it's simply a reference to Paul the apostle, aka St. Paul.
     
    Louise Boat, boggs and Clarkophile like this.
  10. Detroit Music Fan

    Detroit Music Fan Forum Resident

    Location:
    Detroit
    He may have been engaging in word play and puns, which he often did.
     
  11. Paul Gase

    Paul Gase Everything is cheaper than it looks.

    Location:
    California
    Could be a bit of wordplay. The Pope at the time was Pope Paul (died in 1978).
     
  12. coco77

    coco77 Forum Resident

    Location:
    United States
    John was an extremely intelligent man, he would certainly be conscious that any reference to a “Paul” in one of his songs would be taken as of the McCartney variety. How could it not be?

    And didn’t Yoko say that John told her Paul hurt him more than any person in his life? Those are some pretty strong feelings, who’s to say that he didn’t feel betrayed or “duped” by him in some way.
     
  13. czeskleba

    czeskleba Senior Member

    Location:
    Seattle
    Good point. It could have been the Pope. I just don't see how it makes sense for it to be a reference to McCartney.
     
  14. czeskleba

    czeskleba Senior Member

    Location:
    Seattle
    Maybe he did. But this song seems to be specifically about the way (in Lennon's opinion) religion and drugs dupe people and keep them numbed to reality. A random reference to McCartney doesn't fit the overall theme of the song.

    And like I said, I think it's likely Lennon would have said so at some point if that line had been directed at McCartney. Here's what he said in 1980 about How Do You Sleep:
    "You know, I wasn’t really feeling that vicious at the time. But I was using my resentment toward Paul to create a song, let’s put it that way. He saw that it pointedly refers to him, and people kept hounding him about it. But, you know, there were a few digs on his album before mine. He’s so obscure other people didn’t notice them, but I heard them. I thought, Well, I’m not obscure, I just get right down to the nitty-gritty. So he’d done it his way and I did it mine."

    He doesn't mention anything about attacking Paul first with I Found Out, and he makes it clear that he wanted his attacks on McCartney to be obvious, not obscure like Paul's were.
     
    Jason Penick and Louise Boat like this.
  15. boggs

    boggs Multichannel Machiavellian

    Like John didn't hurt the other Beatles at one time or another ?
     
  16. coco77

    coco77 Forum Resident

    Location:
    United States
    Oh I’m sure he did. I’m sure they all hurt each other in many ways, it would be a laundry list and that’s just the things we know about.

    I just used that quote to illustrate the depth of feeling John had for Paul, and to show that it might not be a stretch that he was referring to him in “I Found Out”
     
    Louise Boat, Seltarb and stevenson66g like this.
  17. coco77

    coco77 Forum Resident

    Location:
    United States
    I don’t know, personally I don’t take John’s interviews at face value, he was way too complex for that. It would look bad for him to admit was digging at Paul subtly earlier than Ram, so he’s not going to bring it up, and he also likely wanted to emphasis the difference between them, John-straightforward, Paul- subtle or (“sneaky” if you will). He was also asked about How Do You Sleep many times, so by 1980 he likely had a prepared answer. Was he ever asked about I Found Out? Or how about I Know (I Know)? :)

    and I think the reference to Paul fits perfectly with the theme of the song, he believed wholeheartedly in Paul and Lennon/McCartney for a long time, and said he was very hurt by the breakup.

    These are just my opinions, we can agree to disagree!
     
    Seltarb and stevenson66g like this.
  18. bward

    bward Forum Resident

    Location:
    Boston, MA USA
    I always interpreted the "Jesus to Paul" line as a swipe at McCartney.

    I believe Lennon is talking about fans blindly adoring Paul, like a religion.

    In a sense, this could also be a swing of the bat at the Beatles myth, taking them down a notch.

    So for Lennon, it's a two-fer: a jab at the Beatles and, more specifically, his old songwriting partner.

    To me, the "Jesus to Paul" line doesn't make sense if it refers to St. Paul (Saul of Tarsus) or Pope Paul VI, as they are religious figures, not objects of worship.

    Now that I think about it, by putting Jesus and Paul on the same equal footing by writing the line "from Jesus to Paul," an argument could be made that John is really trying to say, for many, Paul is as big, or maybe bigger a religious figure than Jesus.

    I don't think that's what Lennon intended, but it's another way to look at it.

    This is all just my opinion of course.
     
  19. czeskleba

    czeskleba Senior Member

    Location:
    Seattle
    I don't think it would look bad for him to acknowledge he'd attacked Paul in song first if he did. He attacked him in interviews first anyway. I'm pretty sure he never commented publicly on what that line meant, so indeed, it's a debate that will never be settled definitively, and we will have to agree to disagree.
     
    coco77 likes this.
  20. thrivingonariff

    thrivingonariff Forum Resident

    Location:
    US
    If, as I've long suspected, the "I seen religion from Jesus..." line was a sardonic reference to the "More popular than Jesus" controversy, the "Paul" here may well be a reference to the Beatles phenomenon, which, according to John, included people in the early days shoving their handicapped children at the Beatles, as if the Beatles could heal them. The reference to Paul, then, may not be specifically about Paul (though as the more audience-friendly one, Paul fits) but instead a convenient synecdoche for the group, as "Paul" rhymes with the last word in the previous line and fits metrically.
     
    Louise Boat, stevenson66g and Culpa like this.
  21. bward

    bward Forum Resident

    Location:
    Boston, MA USA
    Yes!

    And with the mythbusting theme of the song, John is using I Found Out as a setup to what he will sing a few songs later when he declares he doesn't believe in Jesus or The Beatles.
     
    Louise Boat, stevenson66g and Culpa like this.
  22. Culpa

    Culpa Forum Resident

    Location:
    Philadelphia, PA
    I agree, I think the line does refer to McCartney but is more generally about "Beatlemania", as one of the things John "found out" about.
     
    stevenson66g and bward like this.
  23. czeskleba

    czeskleba Senior Member

    Location:
    Seattle
    And to me it doesn't make sense as a reference to Paul McCartney, because he's not a religious figure. After the line "I've seen religion" one would expect him to invoke religious figures or religions. The song is about drugs and religion.

    I know it's a popular theory that it's about McCartney, but I remain unconvinced and I will stay that way, unless someone unearths a quote from Lennon saying it was a reference to McCartney.
     
    Louise Boat and boggs like this.
  24. bward

    bward Forum Resident

    Location:
    Boston, MA USA
    As someone said up thread, I don't think John was asked about that specific line. What a lost opportunity.
    So here we are, talking about the meaning of a nearly 50 year old rock song written by a man gone almost 40 years!
    We'll never know for sure.
    And I guess any interpretation is as valid as the next.
     
    czeskleba, stevenson66g and coco77 like this.
  25. GAW Jr.

    GAW Jr. Forum Resident

    Location:
    Long Island, NY
    I try hard to abstain from 'Paul vs. John’. I love the music of both.

    But, Paul had the first Solo LP (w/ actual songs!) in April 1970 (before POB/ATMP). Paul was the first to comment (on LP), regarding his Band/Ex-Band/Partner.

    Man we was lonely, And we was hard pressed to find a Smile (The Last Days of The Beatles?)
    Man we was lonely, But now were fine all the while (Better off Solo, w/o Other Beatles?)

    I used to ride on my fast city line (update of 'Two of Us', Riding Nowhere?)
    Singing songs that I thought were mine alone, alone (Comment on Len-Mac Song Partnership?)

    Nothing heavy, slightly ambiguous, but on-record.
     

Share This Page