The 35DP20 (Gold Face) was the first to use the first generation master tape also Lido fades out better.
The gold face 35DP20 original from 82 is best pressing than I say the MFSL is next the gold faces didn’t have pre emphasis!
Found this version: Boz Scaggs - Silk Degrees . I examined the rip in Audacity and noticed that the samples line up perfectly with those of the old Japan 35DP20 but with boosted levels. So I checked the EQ and it turns out that this version has the de-emphasis curve already applied in the mastering. So, if you want the oldest cd mastering but don't want to mess with pre-emphasis, this release is an option. Analyzed: Boz Scaggs / Silk Degrees, Columbia 471968 2 -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- DR Peak RMS Duration Track -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- DR14 -0.28 dB -16.39 dB 3:00 01-What Can I Say DR12 -1.97 dB -16.91 dB 3:57 02-Georgia DR13 -1.84 dB -17.19 dB 5:12 03-Jump Street DR15 -0.16 dB -19.15 dB 3:53 04-What Do You Want the Girl to Do DR13 -3.62 dB -21.86 dB 6:02 05-Harbor Lights DR14 -1.58 dB -19.50 dB 5:18 06-Lowdown DR12 -2.85 dB -18.04 dB 2:53 07-It's Over DR14 -2.62 dB -19.60 dB 3:17 08-Love Me Tomorrow DR12 -2.45 dB -17.77 dB 3:43 09-Lido Shuffle DR13 -3.18 dB -19.62 dB 4:12 10-We're All Alone -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Number of tracks: 10 Official DR value: DR13
I was intrigued by pauleyh's suggestion that the 35DP-20 gold face might be different to the silver face, so I recently bought a gold face disc to investigate. First the bad news: the gold and silver face 35DP-20's are absolutely identical - as revealed by the peak levels and TOC values from my EAC rip logs of these two discs. Also both discs definitely have pre-emphasis - as revealed by my 1993 Denon CD player's illuminated "EMPHASIS" display, and also by analysing the discs with the command line CD ripper cdda2wav - which reports a PRE-EMPHASIS flag in the subcode, but not in the TOC, for both discs. The good news is that this exercise prompted me to re-listen to the 35DP-20 version, in a listening environment which has had two amplifier upgrades since I listened to the 35DP-20 last. Here's what I said 3 years ago, in post #99 My "clean" comment remains true. But that hint of being sterile was a characteristic of my music system at that time. Now with a nicer amp (dual mono TPA3221) I find that the MFSL has a very "full" sound, compared to the clean sound of the 35DP-20, with the latter having better separation of instruments, and Boz's voice stands out more in the mix. So the 35DP-20 is now my preferred version of Silk Degrees, but the MFSL is still damn good, and I can see many people sticking with the MFSL. For anyone who is interested to try the 35DP-20, just be careful that you hear it in its correct form! i) if using file playback, once the CD is ripped to WAV or FLAC, you must then apply a de-emphasis filter (sox has a good one) otherwise the sound will be too bright. ii) if playing the 35DP-20 on a modern CD player, usually these players have no pre-emphasis detection or correction, so again, the sound will be too bright. The correct process is to rip-then-deemphasize the tracks (as above), then burn the corrected tracks back to CD. iii) if playing the 35DP-20 on an old CD player which has pre-emphasis detection/correction, I found that my CD player's analogue de-emphasis filter was unfortunately not "right" and yielded a dull sound. Again, the correct process is to rip-then-deemphasize in software, and burn back to CD.
Well I just checked the DR values of my de-emphasized 35DP-20, and they're almost identical to the values posted by strippies. DR Peak RMS Filename ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- DR13 -5.99 dB -22.29 dB 01 What Can I Say.wav DR12 -8.22 dB -22.79 dB 02 Georgia.wav DR13 -7.60 dB -23.12 dB 03 Jump Street.wav DR14 -6.00 dB -25.02 dB 04 What Do You Want the Girl to Do.wav DR13 -9.57 dB -27.76 dB 05 Harbor Lights.wav DR14 -7.83 dB -25.40 dB 06 Lowdown.wav DR12 -8.75 dB -23.90 dB 07 It's Over.wav DR14 -8.32 dB -25.48 dB 08 Love Me Tomorrow.wav DR12 -8.54 dB -23.64 dB 09 Lido Shuffle.wav DR13 -8.99 dB -25.52 dB 10 We're All Alone.wav ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Number of files: 10 Official DR value: DR13 ================================================================================== So it seems the Columbia 471968 2 is certainly an option in order to hear this particular mix/master ... and I just discovered that the 3x tracks from Silk Degrees which are included on Boz Scaggs Hits! (CBS Japan 35DP-11) also appear to be identical to the 35DP-20, also with boosted levels. For anyone who wants to buy a 35DP-20, the silver-face is easier to find than the gold, and more affordable. I suppose if you like to collect first-releases, the gold-face is what you want, but be prepared to wait until one comes up, unless you wish to pay the 300 Euros presently being asked for a copy via Discogs! Boz Scaggs – Silk Degrees (1982, GOLD FACE, CD)
The plot seems to thicken! I ended up importing a copy from Japan of the silver face 35DP-20, and the de-emphasized values don't match linuxfan's! Here's mine, after running through dBPowerAmp's de-emph curve: ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Analyzed Folder: /Boz Scaggs/Silk Degrees (35DP-20)/FLAC/FLAC_dr.txt ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- DR Peak RMS Filename ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- DR13 -6.15 dB -22.38 dB 01 Boz Scaggs - What Can I Say.flac DR12 -8.35 dB -22.90 dB 02 Boz Scaggs - Georgia.flac DR13 -7.71 dB -23.23 dB 03 Boz Scaggs - Jump Street.flac DR14 -5.98 dB -25.14 dB 04 Boz Scaggs - What Do You Want The Girl To Do.flac DR13 -9.62 dB -27.82 dB 05 Boz Scaggs - Harbor Lights.flac DR14 -7.95 dB -25.50 dB 06 Boz Scaggs - Lowdown.flac DR12 -8.93 dB -24.02 dB 07 Boz Scaggs - It's Over.flac DR14 -8.44 dB -25.58 dB 08 Boz Scaggs - Love Me Tomorrow.flac DR12 -8.75 dB -23.75 dB 09 Boz Scaggs - Lido Shuffle.flac DR13 -9.13 dB -25.66 dB 10 Boz Scaggs - We're All Alone.flac ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Number of Files: 10 Official DR Value: DR13 ============================================================================================== My disc matrix info is 35DP-20 51A6 +++++ with CSR COMPACT DISC engraved in the hub. The CD's also in a smooth sided jewel case as well. The peak values pre De-Emph are 68.7/44.2/62.9/72.1/36.5/47.2/39.5/41.4/51.9/38.5, which seem to match c-eling's JPN for EU disc earlier in the thread. Does this confirm the existence of a second 35DP-20 mastering, different than the crude matrix gold face?
No, it just means that the dBpoweramp software you used produced slightly different de-emphasis results compared with the software used by @linuxfan.
OldReliable, if you want to confirm that we have exactly the same CD, it would be best to compare our CD rips before any de-emphasis is applied. Here's the EAC log of my silver-face 35DP-20 rip (the EAC log for my gold-face is identical) Track | Start | Length | Start sector | End sector -------------------------------------------------------- 1 | 0:00.00 | 3:00.37 | 0 | 13536 2 | 3:00.37 | 3:57.00 | 13537 | 31311 3 | 6:57.37 | 5:14.00 | 31312 | 54861 4 | 12:11.37 | 3:53.38 | 54862 | 72374 5 | 16:05.00 | 6:00.00 | 72375 | 99374 6 | 22:05.00 | 5:18.32 | 99375 | 123256 7 | 27:23.32 | 2:52.43 | 123257 | 136199 8 | 30:16.00 | 3:17.00 | 136200 | 150974 9 | 33:33.00 | 3:44.00 | 150975 | 167774 10 | 37:17.00 | 4:14.00 | 167775 | 186824 Peak levels: Track 1 68.7 % Track 2 44.2 % Track 3 62.9 % Track 4 72.1 % Track 5 36.5 % Track 6 47.2 % Track 7 39.5 % Track 8 41.4 % Track 9 51.9 % Track 10 38.5 % and here are the DR values. Again, silver-face and gold-face are identical. DR Peak RMS Filename ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- DR14 -3.25 dB -21.46 dB 01 What Can I Say.wav DR13 -7.08 dB -22.24 dB 02 Georgia.wav DR14 -4.02 dB -22.21 dB 03 Jump Street.wav DR17 -2.84 dB -24.49 dB 04 What Do You Want the Girl to Do.wav DR14 -8.73 dB -27.49 dB 05 Harbor Lights.wav DR15 -6.51 dB -24.66 dB 06 Lowdown.wav DR13 -8.05 dB -23.43 dB 07 It's Over.wav DR15 -7.64 dB -24.76 dB 08 Love Me Tomorrow.wav DR14 -5.68 dB -22.88 dB 09 Lido Shuffle.wav DR13 -8.28 dB -25.06 dB 10 We're All Alone.wav ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Number of files: 10 Official DR value: DR14 ============================================================================================== Of course the DR values for audo files with pre-emphasis are not particularly meaningful ... I've just provided these for the sake of comparison.
My 35DP-20 matches both your peaks and DR pre de-emphasis. Your de-emph curve must've been different than dbpoweramp's, which explains what I noticed. It's good to know my silver is the same as the harder to find gold face! Love how this disc sounds, and cost a good bit less than the MFSL goes for.
Yes, iZotope's de-emphasis setting is slightly different to the others (sox, dBpoweramp, foobar2000, Audacity) but I can't imagine the difference would be audible in everyday listening. If you want to explore the science of CD de-emphasis further, you can read about a custom sox FIR filter configuration which is claimed to be more accurate than the standard sox deemph setting - yamamoto2002 Hobby Computing: Designing De-emphasis Digital Filter for old CDs Part 3: Using Reference Equation
OMG! I wonder if there is an audible difference. (I will try it and hear for myself one of these days.) Coincidentally, I’m reading this as I listen to my CP35 Abbey Road through iTunes, with deemphasis applied with SoX.
Out of curiosity I just ran that complicated sox command now, and it certainly worked. But I'm just not motivated to do a listening test between the audio file this command just created, and one using the standard sox deemph command (or iZotope)! I'm very happy with my version of Silk Degrees, and also happy with the few other de-emphasized CD rips in my collection, and I will leave it there!
That FIR de-emphasis filter is wrong. Because its filter coefficients are symmetrical, it is linear phase. Which is a desirable attribute for some digital filters -- but not for a Red Book audio de-emphasis filter. A de-emphasis filter is expected to be minimum phase. In other words, it induces a phase shift to counteract and undo the opposite phase shift induced by the mastering stage pre-emphasis filter. If the pre-emphasis filter is minimum phase but the de-emphasis filter is linear phase, then the frequency response gets corrected but the phase response does not. For more information on de-emphasis filters, read the following blog, where yamamoto2002 also commented with his incorrect approach. Archimago's Musings: HOW-TO: CD Pre-Emphasis & Using SoX De-Emphasis. (And the decline of physical media with vinyl revenue > CD now.) AJ
First I've heard of new CD players not having de-emphasis, or of some players not applying it correctly. I don't mind applying the de-emphasis option when ripping a CD for my phone, but I don't want to have to burn new CDs. If my CD player can't apply de-emphasis correctly during playback, I'd rather get a different CD mastering or an LP.
OK, interesting to hear your analysis. It's all over my head. Back in 2009 these were the equalizer values that the Audacity developers considered to be correct: Apply De-emphasis? - Page 2 - Audacity Forum And here are the equalizer values that SH forum member SolarWind considers to be correct, based on ISO 908 standard: CD/DAT with pre-emphasis: how to de-emphasize correctly? De-emphasis: sharing some results I can't find any information about what EQ values SoX uses.
Fair comment. My music collection resides on SSD, so my CD player's poor de-emphasis performance does not affect me. The CD player sits in my rack only to occasionally audition a CD which I might bring home.
I've seen Steve's praise for the MFSL, but unfortunately its asking price is pretty steep these days. I'll keep an eye out for a good deal. In the mean time, I'll stick with LP for this one. I have a remastered CD, which says it was mastered by Doug Sax. Now I know they carried over the original credits.
I'm playing the Silk Degrees MFSL CD and it really does sound great! I haven't played it in quite some time but seeing this thread prompted me to give it a spin. I remember when Silk Degrees came out and it was a huge hit. Years later I heard earlier Boz stuff especially Loan Me a Dime and was really impressed.
If it hasn't been done in another thread, it would be helpful to compile a list of the masterings by peak levels. Here's my CD: 93.5 / 79.8 / 100 / 100 / 70.8 / 96.4 / 91.3 / 81 / 100 / 93.3 CBS CK 33920 "Now Made in the USA" DIDP 50020 Matrix DIDP 050020 08
