Best CD version(s)/mastering(s) of Black Sabbath's The Eternal Idol???

Haven't found much information about which masterings/releases of this album are preferred on this forum. One of weakest Sabbath albums IMO (if you want to call it a Sabbath album at all, but that would be a rather boring topic for discussion), but I do like to listen to it maybe twice a year - probably once to the Tony Martin version and once to the Ray Gillen (RIP) version (the later being officially released in 2010 on disc2 of the 2xCD Deluxe Edition). Actually I slightly prefer Ray's singing on this album over Tony's (and Ray's is the original of course), but the Ray version is compressed (DR8, as opposed to DR11 of the Tony version on disc1 of the same release). Anyway, the Ray version has only been released once, so there isn't multiple masterings to discuss for that one - my question really is which release(s)/mastering(s) of TEI feat. Tony Martin are your favourites. I do have most CD releases of the album, but haven't done any systematic comparisons yet. I will use the comments on this thread as a starting point. I do know that I prefer the 2010 Deluxe over the 1996 Castle, but that's not a surprise at all. The 1996 is compressed (DR9), the 2010 sounds rather nice to me so far.

Here's one of the very few mentions I have found on part 1 of Roland's famous Sabbath CDs thread
Roland's favorite CD versions of Black Sabbath albums
(cannot proper quote these because the thread is closed). Masza said:

And from part 2 of Roland's thread
Roland's favorite CD versions of Black Sabbath albums (part2)

(Tim was referring to TEI and Seventh Star here.)

A few more comments can be found here
Black Sabbath - Eternal Idol and Seventh Star Deluxe Editions are coming

and here
Any love for Black Sabbath - The Eternal Idol

 

I ended up going for the old Vertigo CD to replace the Castle remaster, since I couldn't find the old Warner (apart from pirated copies).

I actually don't hear that much of a difference from the Castle. It's slightly less compressed but in terms of EQ they seemed pretty similar when I compared them (although that was a long time ago). So I would be curious to hear someone compare any of these two versions to the Warner and/or the Deluxe edition to see if pressing really matters with this album.

I used to discount TEI for a long time, but it's grown on me slowly and steadily over the years. It's got a couple of fillers (Hard Life to Love and that directionless "epic" of a title track) but most of it is really good. The riffs have a unique flavor to them that gives the album an atmosphere somewhere between the drunken but diabolical Born Again and the majestic Headless Cross.

 

I love you bsr
A Sab topic is desired above all else
Besides, you thought of me, which is even better.

Unfortunately, my knowledge about pressings, masterings and remasterings, CD's and vinyl, etc. is exceedingly limited.
So, I will do my best and hope I have some meager insight to be gleaned.

Maybe learning will be teaching in this case

 

Yeah, the dynamic range difference between the 1987 Vertigo and the 1996 Castle is not huge (DR10 vs. DR9). Apparently the Warner is significantly more dynamic - at least according to the DR Meter. I am curious if I will actually hear the difference when I finally get to directly comparing them to each other.

TEI is one of my least favourite Sabbath albums, but given how much I like Sabbath and many of their albums, that does not mean it is really bad. Or rather, as an album I do think it is rather bad, but it does have several tracks I like - the title track (yep, for me it's the best song on the album), The Shining, Ancient Warrior, and Scarlet Pimpernel (I've always liked Tony's melodic guitar pieces: Orchid, Fluff, Laguna Sunrise, Embryo and this one). The other songs are all fillers for me more or less, but of course even those have some strong moments, riffs etc. (how couldn't they have, it's Tony Iommi on guitar!). I agree the album has a special atmosphere, although IMHO it is very different from the more raw-sounding Born Again. I find the sound of TEI almost sterile in comparison - maybe that's partly because TEI was DDD? And probably because Bill Ward didn't participate... And yes, some of the songs and riffing on TEI sounds like they were preparing for Headless Cross. I think The Shining would have perfectly fit into Headless Cross too, which is funny because most of that song (minus the lyrics) already xisted since 1984.

Thank you very much Paulette. You're definitely one of the biggest Sab fans on the forum, and you always bring a lot of good energy, so of course I had to invite you. Don't worry, when it comes to talking about masterings, I like to think of myself as kind of a student - trying to learn the stuff by listening and trying to talk about it. Doing it together is even more fun.

 

By the way, in case anyone has missed the original version of TEI with Ray Gillen on vocals, check it out:

 

As you probably know, the album recordings were pretty much finished (after multiple recording sessions with several quick line-up changes) when Ray decided to pursue a solo career (with Badlands) and left. Tony Martin was brought in and re-recorded the entire vocals (minus the laughter on one song, I think it was Nightmare, which is still Ray's), following Ray's melody lines very closely. Personally I like the later Martin era albums better. BUT as a live singer, Tony Martin did a great job during the 1987 tour:

 

Anyway, back to the topic: best/preferred masterings of TEI?

 

I like the Sanctuary 2CD one myself.

 

Thanks for your feedback! Did you compare to any other releases?

 

I've never heard the Ray tracks anywhere else so I can't offer advice on that, but compared the the Castle version (1996, I believe?) I just think it breathes a little better.

 

Thanks!

Yeah, the Ray version has only been released on the Deluxe. It had been leaked into bootleg circles a few years before, but that leaked version was 100% identical to the one that was to be officially released on the Deluxe 2xCD. Several earlier demos from different stages of the recording process had unofficially circulated for years already, but the released one was closest to the final product and best soundwise. Not so long ago, some previously unknown very early demos (some instrumental, some with alternate/guide vocals) called "Eternal Idol Working Tracks" surfaced in great quality:

And even more recently, the entirely instrumental "Eternal Idol Instrumental Demos" surfaced (not on Youtube yet). It is interesting that for TEI, probably THE Sabbath album with the craziest recording and writing process (ever considered changing your band line-up several times during the writing and recording of one album? I am sure it was a hell of an interesting experience, and also pretty sure that Tony Iommi didn't enjoy it very much), more and more studio demos keeps surfacing. I am aware of about 5 different sets of demos, all from different stages of the recording process. Anyway, sorry, that's probably material for another thread.

Back to the topic, the Tony Martin version of the album which does have multiple releases (I notice I keep talking about the Ray version, probably because the history of this album is so insane): Yes, the Castle remaster is from 1996. The Deluxe's 'breathing better' means it sounds more dynamic, right? Thanks!

We've got another comment on Roland's thread, I will quote it here so we have everything in one place:

So far, the Deluxe seems to be quite popular! I hope we will hear more opinions about the original Vertigo and WB releases.

 

My bet is that since this was a digital recording is that there was probably zero mastering done for CD. I bet the Vertigo CD is how the master mix down sounds.

The “shining” (pun intended) Jeff Glixman and Iommi gave this album just doesn’t work for Sabbath, IMO. It’s a product of its time more than anything else. There is some great material but the 80’s sheen is just so unSabbath, IMO.

 

Very good point IMO, Tim. As I see it, Born Again, Seventh Star and The Eternal Idol are pretty much experiments that didn't work out very well (even though they provided us with some good songs and riffs and moments), and obviously didn't last. TEI's sound and concept is indeed very dated (and, in a way, already was when it came out); Born Again's a mess; and Seventh Star somehow belongs to a different musical genre that I don't like very much. TEI, however, helped preparing a series of albums that worked much better for me (despite their limitations that I do recognize), namely, Headless Cross, TYR and Cross Purposes - until it came to a not-so-impressive end with Forbidden. I fully understand that many people who love 1970ies' Sabbath dislike the Tony Martin era and/or say it is not Sabbath - it is indeed very different from the original Sabbath. On the other hand, the Dio era is very different from the Ozzy era as well. For me, there are basically four eras/incarnations of Sabbath: 1970ies Ozzy Sabbath, Dio Sabbath, Martin Sabbath (even though I agree with you that Cross Purposes is special because of Geezer's presence) and Ozzy Reunion Sabbath. Everything else is just experiments. 1970ies Ozzy Sabbath, is my favourite era, Dio Sabbath is my 2nd-favourite era, Martin Sabbath the third; and of these four main incarnations, Ozzy Reunion Sabbath is the least interesting one for me.

Very interesting point! Maybe the first comparison I will have to do is original Vertigo vs. original WB.

 

I compared my Vertigo (256 kbps AAC file) to the Deluxe edition on Spotify now. To me, the latter is a significantly more pleasant experience. It's more focused on the low end, which brings out the bass and makes the songs sound a lot warmer and fuller.

The Vertigo has a more pronounced mid range (I think) which seems to bring out nasty mastering artefacts in some early DDD CD:s. There is a sort of "sprawl" emanating from the guitar and the various cymbals that is grating on the ears and makes the music sound less punchy. It's the same problem than plagued all early masterings of Judas Priest's "Ram it Down" and definitely Megadeth's "So Far So Good So What". I don't know why this was the case back then.

So as far as I'm concerned, I might have to replace the Vertigo with the Deluxe!

 

Thank you very much! That's exactly the kind of analysis I was hoping for: not just: "I like X better than Y", but: "I like X better than Y because X has characteristics a, b and c, and Y shows characteristics d, e and f...". I like details! They help us getting an idea what it was that led someone to his conclusions about the quality of the recordings in question.

I think I have an idea which kind of artifacts you're referring to. I am curious how my own listening experience will compare to yours when I will be doing my own comparisons.

 

Here's the releases I know about, incl. DR (dynamic range) values:

• 1987 The Eternal Idol 1987 Germany 832 708-2 Vertigo (DR10)
  
• 1987 The Eternal Idol 1987 Germany for Japan 32PD-294 Vertigo (identical peaks and DR as the 1987 Germany 832 708-2 Vertigo)
  
• 1987 The Eternal Idol 1987 USA 9 25548-2 Warner (DR12)
  
• 1987 The Eternal Idol 1993 Japan PHCR-4117 Vertigo (identical peaks and DR as the 1987 USA 9 25548-2 Warner; the only difference I noticed is the track split between Born To Lose a and Nightmare)
  
• 1987 The Eternal Idol 1996 Japan TECW-20188 Teichiku (DR10)
  
• 1987 The Eternal Idol 1996 UK ESM CD 336 Castle (DR9)
  
• 1987 The Eternal Idol 2010 Germany 2CD 2752460 Sanctuary (DR11 for the original tracks, bonus tracks excluded)

 

A quick listen to the following 3 releases on my old AKG K 141 headphones to the following 3 releases

• 1987 Germany 832 708-2 Vertigo
• 1987 USA 9 25548-2 Warner
• 2010 Germany 2CD 2752460 Sanctuary

suggests that the original German Vertigo release and the 2010 Deluxe are pretty close to each other, but very different from the original US WB release. The latter lacks low end. So far, I clearly agree with Music_dude that the original WB is disappointing. I find both the original Vertigo and the Deluxe much fuller-sounding and thus better. All three seem to sound too bright for me though, at least at this moment.

 

I’ve never heard a CD version of TEI but I can tell you that the US WB original vinyl pressings sound fantastic! Well, as fantastic as it can sound with the aforementioned “sheen” that was correctly pointed out above.

My favorites of the Martin albums are probably Headless Cross and Cross Purposes.

 

Currently listening to the entire album (had heard a song or two before).

Only been listening to BS for a year and to music in general in such a "present" sort of way.

This is the first time I've even seen TEI really talked about before.

Another note; I am recalling a rule that if you do not have a system listed in your profile you can't really comment on these sort of discussions.
I have none listed because honestly, I don't really have one. I've been in this forum now a year but focusing more on aquisition of the music itself.

Learning technicalities is low on my list currently but I envision much more in the future.

I can say that this album has the only cover art I like for BS.

 

Thanks for your comment, Paulette! I have no idea if the "list your system or hold your mouth" thing you mention is really a "rule". In my understanding, it does make sense to note your system in your profile in order to give people a chance to contextualize your judgement - evaluate your evaluation, so to speak. E.g. if a person has a system that is known to sound very "dark" and that same person happens to prefer "bright" sounding masterings over "dark" ones, people might conclude: "Ah, that's probably because her system sounds so dark already - if she listens to a dark mastering on that system, it will just sound too dull; a bright mastering is needed on that dark-sounding system to make the recording sound natural." Or if two persons listen to the same mastering and person A finds it extremely bright while person B finds it very dark, there's also the chance that the difference is due to their systems (but of course it could also be due to different hearings or tastes).

Anyway, please let us know what you think about the album and its sound (and which release you're listening to). I am interested in your thoughts. And if you just use your laptop for listening, why not list that as your system? Just list the laptop model, sound card model, speakers model (in case you use external speakers) and maybe your software player.

As for the album cover, here's some information from the Wikipediaarticle about The Eternal Idol:

And for details on the Eternal Idol studio sessions and line-up changes (and many other things regarding the history of Sabbath), check out this page:
Timeline Page – Black Sabbath Online

 

I just got the 2 cd version

 

Awesome! Will it be the first time you hear the Ray Gillen version of the album? In any case, enjoy! And, of course, comment your thoughts!

 

You don't like the cover art in their self titled album?

 

No. I think the witch is the hokiest thing ever.
Without her the picture is fascinating, though.

 

I think it's one of the greatest album covers of all time. Absolutely fits the mood of the album perfectly.