Wait until you hear the MCA. I used to think the Virgin/Charsima was the best after comparing it to the DE, but it is so inferior to the MCA it's unbelievable. The 1985 V/C was not "no-noised" as in the program "no-noise," but something happened. My suspicion is that a tape was played back in DOLBY when it shouldn't have been. The difference between it and the MCA is *that* dramatic. Perhaps a tape was mistakenly marked as being in dolby when it wasn't. Compare it to the MCA and you'll find that that old Virgin/Charisma is horrific.
The Virgin/Charisma/Nimbus disc is nowhere near as bright as the MCA, going by the sample that Jamie posted on his other thread. That does not however mean it was no-noised. http://www.stevehoffman.tv/forums/showthread.php?t=58832 If anything, the MCA sounds compressed in the top end to me; the reverb on the sample seems to be getting bigger (Someone forgot to align the Dolby again?). To me however, the Virgin/Charisma is spot on.
I was typing my post as Jeff posted his. Looks as though we are both saying the other persons preference has a Dolby problem. EDIT - The muffled sound of the vocals on the first track is a bit of a red herring. That certainly does sound like a Dolby screwup - but it only seems to affect the vocals.
Phil, trust me on this. I recently picked up the MCA out of curiosity because I hadn't had it around for years. I already chose the V/C over the remaster, but this time I took the MCA and the V/C and really put them to the test: There is no comparison, whatsoever. The V/C sounds under water, behind a building and four blocks down the street. I don't know what happeend because the V/Cs that I've heard are all superb, other than this. The MCA can be had for about $5. Pick it up and you'll be glad you did. It isn't just vocals, the entire recording sounds the way I described. The V/C is also nearly hissless compared to the MCA. I am certain it was played back in dolby or something. Terrible.
Jeff, whatever your preferred disc is it's fine by me. But... I hear a compressed top end on Jamie's sample. Maybe it's the former engineer in me, but that kind of stuff just drives me nuts. So it's not for me I'm afraid Then again - do we know for certain your Virgin Charisma CD has the same mastering as mine?
I don't know Phil but the chances of V/C 1020 having different masterings would seem less likely than Jamie's sample being inferior to the actual CD. It isn't like the MCA CD is an OOP MFSL title that goes for $100. Anyway, there is no added compression on the MCA disc that I can hear. As Jaime pointed out, it sounds almost exactly like the vinyl. I don't think MCA did anything with the tapes.
Except more than likely use the U.S. tapes that were sent over for Impulse... Just my two cents. I always remembered every version of this lp back in the vinyl days to sound muffled on "Looking For Someone" and much brighter on "The Knife". I agree that the MCA sounded good, I just don't know what happened in each case... Maybe the Tonnmeister knows the history of the MCA disc in question...
Just checking. I only ask because we've found 3 different masterings of V/C 1058 (that's Foxtrot folks). Fair comment, duly noted! I did notice that it sounded like the vinyl - but I wasn't thrilled listening to that either. Yeah, I know - the V/C is the odd one out, but then, all copies of Beggars Banquet across the globe ran slow until 24 years after it first came out ... I'm not saying that, because I don't think I hear Dolby problems with my preferred disc (there are no audible stereo artifacts for example), that it is any closer to the master either, because I've no way of actually knowing what tape is used. It's just that how I think my disc sounds, doesn't match how you think it sounds - that's all. Maybe I shouldn't dismiss the MCA completely yet - like you say, it is cheap, and I've only heard a sample ...
The MCA Trespass CD is pretty cheap, it's worth it just to pick it up as it's not as big a loss as shelling out for a gold CD and being disappointed
>>>>Except more than likely use the U.S. tapes that were sent over for Impulse... <<<< Right. But the difference in the two is so staggering that I am convinced that there is a mismarked tape somewhere in England that is being played back in dolby when it shouldn't be. In fact, the V/C is so bad that it sounds more like the 1994 DE that everyone hates than it does the MCA. And it *is* strange that Nick Davis would have ruined _Trespass_ with no-noise to that extent while no other album from the 1994 series, despite being inferior to other editions in some cases, suffers from anywhere near that kind of murkiness. I think it's possible that Nick Davis played back a tape in dolby that isn't in dolby. And I think the same thing happened with the Virgin/Charisma. If anyone cares to spend a whopping $5 or so and compare, you'll see what I mean. The MCA is alive. Someone should line up Jaime's sample of the vinyl, then the MCA, then the DE, and then the V/C and you'll see that the V/C is closer to the DE than some people want to think. I had the V/C and thought I was done with this one, but that's because I compared it to the even worse DE, but that MCA disc is pure gold. And the old V/C has WAY too little hiss for an album recorded in 1970 and likely not in dolby A, originally. The acoustic guitars on the MCA sound utterly gorgeous. A complete winner. I'm glad I took the time to actually compare the discs themselves.
The DE of Foxtrot has some hi-hats missing in Watcher Of The Skies, and some other quiet passages that have been "muted", if that counts.
Having recently acquired the MCA Trespass (and long having had both other CD versions), I have to agree strongly with Jeff on this. My Virgin and DE sound surprisingly similar--there does seem to be a bit more hiss on the Virgin, but otherwise I hear very few sonic differences (and I was really trying, assuming the Virgin sounded like the MCA and wondering why Jamie noticed such a huge difference and I didn't--of course, I didn't listen to his samples either, just my CDs). But now that I have the MCA, I see (or hear) the light. In addition to more hiss, the MCA has far more sonic nuances that are clearly audible, especially in vocals and acoustic guitars (IMHO). I have no idea which tape if any did or didn't use Dolby, but to me the MCA version is definitely the way to go on this album. (I should also point out that my Virgin CD was made in Austria as part of a 3 picture disc boxed set, so it could have a different mastering--but Jeff's impressions sound consistent with my own).
I know you have stated this and I I have assumed this to eb the case so I have never bothered repurchasing the DE of _Foxtrot_ as I have the V/C and it sounds great. But _Trespass_ is still considered the no-noise standout, isn't it? Well, perhaps _Foxtrot_ can be added. Anyway, I still find the situation a bit strange.
Yep. And I feel bad for recommending the V/C for so long, but I didn't know any better and it certainly is better than the DE. But the MCA is pure gold in comparison to both of them. And yes, the acoustic guitars actually have top end! They sound stunning on the MCA, buried under water on the V/C and under the freaking sea on the DE.
Does anyone think I should go back and pick up those Japanese-pressed Atlantics of "Duke", "Genesis" or "Invisible Touch"? I'm actually thinking about getting the "Genesis" if only because I dumped the West German Target of this years ago after buying the US-pressed Atlantic (and liking it a lot more). I'll be curious just to see if the US Atlantic still wins out.
Pick up the Duke. Can't say about the others as I've no interest in those albums and haven't really compared. The only pressing of Duke that *slightly* beats the original Atlantic (Japan pressing) is the original Atlantic (US - WEA) pressing, IMO.
Re: Trespass Virgin/Charisma CD. What I notice on Looking For Someone is a muted top end. Yes, the vocals sound strange, as if recorded under a blanket. I guess I need to check the frequency spectrum of that track. With headphones, I notice a very natural and constant tape hiss in the background, but you are right, at a surprisingly low volume (compared to, say, Selling England By The Pound). However, the instruments and their echos and decays do sound 100% realistic to me, especially the drums and organ parts, no hints of digital noise reduction. The difference against the remaster was extreme, in my opinion. By the way, the inner ring of my disc reads "VIRGIN MEGASTORE" and "MASTERED BY NIMBUS". But from Jeff's comments, I am certain we listen to the same mastering. Just different interpretations. I will look for the MCA disc. As for easy availability, I will just say that MCA discs from the mid 1980s are not common in Germany at all. But I will try.
To be fair to Jeff, I think he moved away from talking digital noise reduction, but the rest of your observation I fully agree with, and another reason I don't think anything is wrong in the NR department. If something goes wrong with noise reduction of >any< kind, decays on pianos, guitars, drums etc, and reverb, are the first things to suffer. As Andreas says - they are 100%. I don't hear any artifacts in stereo imaging either. If this was a non Dolby tape played back with, it would sound far worse than the DE for sure... It's worth noting that Dolby A first appeared in 1966.
So, I purchased a copy of the MCA Trespass to compare it to the DE. I had been one of the defenders of the DE in Jamie's Genesis Trespass thread a few weeks ago. I've never owned the MCA before. I used to have the Virgin/Charisma cd but got rid of it when the DE came out. After comparing to the DE, I have to agree with everything that's been said about the DE. It's very, very no-noised, and as a result it sounds very muffled. The life has definitely been sucked out of it. Here's my problem: I don't particularly like the MCA either. I like it better than the DE, but this is one case where I find the tape hiss bothersome. I'm normally not overly sensitive to it, but there's just a ton of it here, so much so that it really swamps the songs in some of the quieter passages (of which there are a lot). Is that because they're not using the original master? I went back to my lp, and it isn't great either. The copy I have is an MCA budget version from the late '70's (I think MCA's budget ($3.99 at the time) releases during that time suffered from terrible quality control), and it has tons of surface noise (clicks and pops galore) and a lot of tape hiss. So I'm at a loss. Is there a good vinyl version out there?
Well, I went back to the store this weekend and picked up the Japanese-pressed Atlantic versions of "Genesis" and "Invisible Touch" as well as a Target-looking disc that was pressed by UMI/Switzerland, of Phil Collins' "No Jacket Required". Impressions so far... "Genesis" still sounds pretty harsh to my ears. Too much treble, especially if turned up loud. The currently available disc still sounds better to me. "Invisible Touch" doesn't seem to sound any different but I plan to do a better sit-down with it this week. "No Jacket Required" sounds so much better than the current, shrill-sounding CD. Finally, less-painful sibilance on "Sussudio"! BTW, I also found a couple of other oldies there. I found a red Japanese target of Zep's "IV" and a beautiful Target of Fleetwood Mac's "Rumours". The Zep is OK, but pretty bright-sounding. The Fleetwood Mac is as good as Steve said it was, which is good for a CD but not as good as the DVD-Audio disc. FWIW, I left the Japanese-pressed "Duke" in the bins. I re-listened to my German-pressed Charisma and I think it sounds pretty good so I didn't drop the $$. I could pick it up for someone here if anyone's really interested. Be warned that the condition probably isn't all that great. The copy of "Genesis" that I bought smells like cat pee! Kevin
The other night I played my "Wind And Wuthering" DE - I didn't enjoy it, then last nght I found a V/C cropped artwork original, admittedly in bad condition, but it's a Nimbus pressing and sounds great and doesn't hurt my ears like the DE. Following other discussions, I found and compared these older versions and preferred them over the DEs but I stopped at the wonderful older "ATOTT" cd, I really thought I was happy with this "WAW", maybe I need to re-evaluate "ATTWT" and "Duke" - what sayest thou, Opti, Jamie, Jeff et al?
My favorite Duke is the WEA Pressed Atlantic. A very close second is the Japan Pressed Atlantic and the JVC pressed Atlantic (these two are digitally identical, I've tested with EAC). I haven't found an AttWT that beats the DE, but I've only heard the original Atlantic pressing of that one and unfortunately, it has no bottom end, just like the old Atco of W&W.
THE LAMB remaster is very nice- the original CD was pretty poor. I'm wondering what the new 5.1 will sound like...
>>>THE LAMB remaster is very nice<<< Agreed. >>>the original CD was pretty poor.<<< Only because they used a faulty tape that had a buzz on one channel. >>>I'm wondering what the new 5.1 will sound like...<<< Remixed, over EQd and compressed would be my guess, unfortunately.
