Best sounding Peter Gabriel So CD

Not a CD, I know, but the 2012 B&W Hi-Res download is my favourite. The DR numbers aren't great (though better than the 2012 CD version) but it just ticks all the boxes for me. The Black Triangle is a lovely thing but just lacks the clarity of the 2012 Hi Res - like brass that could do with a polish. The new 2016 Vinyl download is great too: identical to the 2012 Hi Res in terms of DR but 'arranged' differently in terms of stereo-imaging (well, to my ears anyway).

 

I received a Victor Japan for US copy of "So" today. I already had two other US copies, one I think DADC (Geffen/Warner), the other JVC (Geffen/MCA). But until just a week or so ago, I thought that there was only one mastering/level for all pressings of "So" worldwide. Long story short, curiosity got the better of me.

Two observations from analyzing "Big Time" using the Dynamic Range Meter and Audacity...

The standard mastering (black triangle, DADC, etc.) is earlier than the level shifted Victor Japan for US. Though the Victor Japan for US does not digitally clip at 0 dBFS, it still has a flat topped waveform reduced in level at the same location where the standard mastering has digital clipping at 0 dBFS. This indicates that the Victor Japan for US is a later level reduction from the standard mastering, which already had been clipped at 0 dBFS.

The 0 dBFS digital clipping on the standard mastering of "Big Time" is not that bad. Only one location has multiple consecutive samples at 0 dBFS, and a total of a few dozen locations have single samples at 0 dBFS. Any concerns/complaints about sound quality probably are unrelated to audio level or clipping but rather to other choices made upstream in the recording process.

AJ

 

Thanks for the analysis. I'll give my JVC for US another listen.
Interesting that it is a later re-level compared to the US DADC, Daio For US, US JVC, DADC Austria

 

There are two re-levels of the original 100/100
Peter Gabriel - Best Digital Masterings?
the 75.8/75.8/75.8/ from Europe and the 98.0/99.2/96 Japan for US.
There's also a weird Canadian 100.0/97.7/97.7 that is possibly another one.

However, while the 75.8 is just a level shift and digitally identical once loudness matched, the Japanese one is different and doesn't cancel out (possibly a little retouch in EQ), thus the harsher sound some have reported.

 

My US copy has a DR of 12. I'm good with that

 

Yes, we presently are discussing the Victor Japan (or Sanyo Japan but not Daio Kosan Japan) for US.

The Canadian disc exhibits the Cinram condition. For some reason, I seem to be the only person who has noticed from the DR Meter or at least commented online that Cinram routinely applies a -0.20 dB level shift to many of its pressings. I would like for Hoffman residents to retire EAC and use the DR Meter instead. Because it tracks both peak and average levels, it is so much more useful for recognizing same/different masterings and level shifts.

AJ

 

???

The 0,2 dB level shift on Canadian pressings has been discussed in numerous threads on this Forum.

 

I would have thought so. But I see Canadian pressings come up often, and people fail to note that the difference is the -0.20 dB Cinram historical precedent.

Though I appreciate the legacy of EAC peak levels documented over the years, the problem again is over reliance on EAC. Peak levels are just single points on a graph. Expressing them as decimals or percentages, instead of dBFS, further complicates matters. Meanwhile, the DR Meter provides not single points but ranges/distances between peak and average levels.

To bring this back around to topic, the Victor Japan (and Sanyo Japan) for US "So" mastering does not exhibit a constant level shift from track to track. That can make peak level comparisons all but futile.

AJ

 

Good point.
I find EAC levels important for Pre-Emphasis discs. Too many have been submitted to the DR database without the proper EQ added, so the values are automatically incorrect-
Depeche Mode-Construction Time Again WG Silver #02 this has pre, the tag is located in the SUBQ channel which would be hard to locate shows a DR14
Once the proper EQ has been added it drops to DR12
EAC peak levels can help determine if other's carry it also for those who may not have software to detect it. If going by the database one might think this is the best sounding because of the high DR submission, rip it and play it and wonder why it sounds like a tin can.
EAC levels have been a quick and easy way of determining a 'difference' albeit small sometimes
Going by the DR submission for Construction Time Again, just looking at the US DR values makes me think it has pre-also.

 

I fail to see how two different tools devised to read different properties can be substitute of each other.
Peak levels are great to determine on the fly cloned masterings* and disc equivalence. EAC or replay-gain scan (more precise but almost irrelevantly so, usually)
DR values are good to see if two apparently equally peaked tracks are different in their dynamics (therefore in masterings).

*As well as spectral analysis and time-based analysis can reveal other details and differences among two apparently "identical" masterings, unobtainable with the two aforementioned tools .

And I agree with @c-eling : EAC numbers don't tell the whole picture but neither DR values do.
Subtle changes in EQ can give similar DR values but different peak readings.

I believe the more tools we have and use, the better.
I've seen EAC peaks, DR values, EQ graphs, null-tests and others used here to compare sources.
As far as they give more data to talk about, all of them are fine.
Peak levels are a better starting point than DR readings, as far as old masterings are concerned (IMO). But it's the other way round for modern masterings.

 

I derive DR values with the Offline TT Meter for Mac OS X. Advantage is that this tool outputs the DR, the peak and the RMS value of every track at once, and the album DR. Thus showing more that EAC peaks only. Disadvantages are that the peak values cannot be compared to EAC peaks, and that the tool is years old, is hard to find and doesn't seem to be maintained anymore. So every time I upgrade my OS, I'm wondering if the meter will continue to work.

I like the TT Meter because it shows many things at once. EAC peaks only are certainly not enough.

 

No, they can be compared. Math.

20 * (peak decimal) log = -dBFS

20 * (0.789) log = -2.06 dBFS

...or...

2^(-dBFS / 6.o2) = peak decimal

2^(-2.06 / 6.02) = 0.789

AJ

 

Well, pre-emphasis detection -- especially when flagged in the subcode, not the TOC -- is an issue, but a different issue.

For peak levels, discs mastered with pre-emphasis should report the raw peak levels off disc. De-emphasis post processing may vary from method to method, so those peaks levels should not be used for comparison purposes.

For Dynamic Range, discs mastered with pre-emphasis should be metered and reported twice -- once with the raw data and once with de-emphasis post processing. That is similar to the metering and reporting method as should be used for HDCD.

AJ

 

RESURRECTION! in the spirit of Easter.

These which is best can be confusing, Nimbus best, mastered by Nimbus not... Black Triangle greatest, or maybe not because of clipping.
Any who, I've a...
(at bottom of disc)
9 24088-2
MADE IN JAPAN

(under Geffen Company rundown on left of CD)
Mfd. for RCA
Direct Marketing Inc.
under License
114764D

it doesn't say SANYO or JVC, must be a RCA club addition but by who?

Question, is it a good version? Anyone familiar? Should I source a Nimbus?

 

...forgot to include Matrix/Runout: 9 24088-2 - UIE2 3 and

"Made In Japan" printed at the bottom edge of the CD.
No barcode present.
Rear insert has both catalog numbers '9 24088-2' and 'D114764'.
Rear side of gray tray simply says "Patents Pending" on it.
Rear of front insert has only '9 24088-2' printed on it.
CD has both '114764D' and '9 24088-2' printed on it.
Rear insert says 'Printed In USA', CD says 'Made In Japan'.

Discogs lists only 1 person have, who rated it as a 5, could I be that lucky

 

JVC Japan

AJ

 

I have an original 1986 Geffen CD and 1st press vinyl of this album and enjoy how both sound. The CD especially sounds sublime in a good pair of headphones. I have yet to hear the record through headphones I'll get around to it soon.

 

I have the orignal european Lp and the SACD.
The Lp sounds very good, the SACD ok/good, but not optimal. Imo.

 

I'm perfectly happy with my Peter Gabriel - So

 

It's really simple with So. Digitally, they decided to damage it in the 2000's. All versions prior to 2000 have good sound. After 2000 the inevitable compression starts. The multi-disc Anniversary release is among the worst.

 

Thanks AJ, Vaughan et al., so looks like mine is:

98.0/99.2/96.7/96.5/98.6/87.8/98.3/97.7/97.6 (Japan for US JVC)

What does that mean technically? Does is sound as good as Black Triangle/Nimbus, just different levels, but audibly the same?

Should I continue searching for a better version? (Black Triangle/Nimbus) According to Vaughan, no.

 

I believe there is no 'one that bests them all' for this title. You have peaks that match the Japan Triangle.
Big Time sounds like poop on everything.

 

So now you've got me confused "Japan Triangle" (Black Triangle from Japan?)

98.0/99.2/96.7/96.5/98.6/87.8/98.3/97.7/97.6, peaks for Japan for US JVC & Sanyo, doesn't match the 100/100/100/100/100/90.4/100/100/100, peaks for Japan-Black Triangle.

Eh, no matter guess I'll just enjoy and call it done.

Anyone else, Bueller, Bueller?

 

Oops, I may have got them switched around.The peaks for all should be in this thread somewhere.
Most peaks worldwide use the 100's. If you want the Triangle, grab a run of the mill US JVC, DADC, any 90's US pre remaster

 

I read back a bit, you posted:

"Well, received the JVC Japan for US this morning
98.0/99.2/96.7/96.5/98.6/87.8/98.3/97.7/97.6
Using 'Big Time' I'm at the conclusion every pre-remaster contains clipping unless someone can post details of other level shifted editions
But, not all is lost it's not as bad: Left-14 Right-5
The 100 masters have Big Time @ Left-78 Right-43
This is now my go to on compact disc, I'm done with this title "

Guess I'll concur, if there really isn't any loss in quality compared to 100 masters, I'm one and done too. (tis the only version I have, and got it yesterday for $6).

Played the same game with Steely Dan Aja, got burned on an LP and CD (not the one pictured in the listing). I've an incoming final try at getting the version I want, close to Steve's mastering 7, (Mastering 3 - MCA CRC club version), if it isn't I'm done.

Gratitude for puttin' up with a newbie. Just got a vintage tape deck too, nooooooooooo whyyyyy!