Bi-Wiring - question

Hello

I've been using Bi-wiring for quite a while, and I used it as follows:

Source: Yamaha R-N803D
Speakers: Yamaha NS-777, Yamaha NS-B750 and now Triangle Quartet Genese
Cables: 2x Van Den Hull Clearwater

In all 3 speakers, I did notice one clear difference: the bass became more punchy, more vibrant - however in the case of the 777s it was too much, it sounded over-emphasized.

Firstly, I'd like to understand one thing: I see a lot of data online about bi-wiring, but at the end of the day, what's the real difference (not necesairly benefit) of using bi-wire? Is it true that it halves the impedence? In my case, the Quartets are 8ohm. When used now in bi-wire, are they actually 4 ohm? And that does mean that my amp now output 160W (vs 110w) into it because of that? Would that not be considered a sort of advantage?

I'm asking in order to better understand - because I'm planning on upgrading my amp - either the Yamaha 1100 or the Atoll IN200, and one of the MAIN differences is that the Atoll does not offer bi-wire option. So this will help me with my decision.

Best regards

 

The MAIN difference should simply be the SQ of each amp and which one you prefer.

How did you arrive at your 2 contenders?

Have you auditioned/heard either of them?...........preferably in your own system..........or at a dealer?

Worry about the car first...........not the tyres.

 

There is no change in the impedance when bi-wiring. If the Atoll amp only provides one set of speaker outputs, you can still bi-wire by combining the terminations at the amplifier end. Some people have mentioned they prefer to use two sets of speaker outputs at the amp and get better results, but that is up for debate certainly. For many, there is a greater degree of improvement when "bi-amping" your speakers vs bi-wiring. Even Parasound recommends bi-amping for the best sound quality..of course, they want you to buy a second amplifier as well!

 

No, the impedance is not halved.
It stays the same.

 

IME simply acquiring a better amp will give better bang for buck than passively bi amping................

 

Are you talking about bi-wiring, or are you talking about running two pairs of speakers simultaneously?

Running two pairs of speakers in the same room simultaneously creates a lot of audible problems when listening to stereo recordings even when all four speakers are identical. Overemphasis of certain frequencies and other problems generally speaking can negatively impact the quality of sound. And, running two pairs of 8 ohm speakers basically halves the average impedance that the amplifier sees. That’s a more difficult load for the amplifier even though the available wattage may be higher.

If you’re talking about conventional bi-wiring, it is essentially two runs of the same gauge speaker cable. That sort of speaker connection halves the resistance that the amplifier sees, which is a good thing and very different from impedance.

The resistance measurement of speaker cable is typically the DC loop resistance measured in ohms.

By comparison, speaker impedance (usually an average number, e.g., 4, 8, etc., measured at a test frequency) is also measured in ohms, but impedance is a combination of resistance, capacitance and inductance.

You can certainly use the two pairs of Yamaha speaker terminals to bi-wire one pair of speakers, but not even Yamaha claims any audible improvement. There’s also the idea that you’re potentially connecting two outputs cables to each other at the speaker terminals, so it’s really a good idea to remove the speaker jumpers first to avoid doing bad things to your amp. Presumably, you’re aware of that already.

Be careful with your connections, and try avoid mixing up impedance and resistance when talking about and wiring systems consisting of amps and speakers. It’ll save you some headaches.

 

Didn’t the OP say “ bi wiring” not bi amping?

 

Yes. But what followed in his description seemed like an inadvertent combination of both. Maybe I misunderstood his meaning.

 

Simply replace the crappy stock plated strap jumpers with high quality speaker cable. The results will be the same as bi-wiring.

 

With some speakers this may be true. But this is probably not true for all speakers.

 

Thanks for the explanation!

Just to be clear, im definitely talking about bo wiring, not bi amping. I specifically mentioned one amp, and numerous speakers. I tried them all in my system, in my place. I actually owned them all, currently the Triangle.

In regards to what Yamaha says about bi wiring, actually in both speaker and amp manual they do specify that "better audio quality can be expected" when bi wiring. Considering yamaha don't even sell speaker wire of any kind, would it be logical to assume there is some truth to that, maybe based on their study/measurements?

As I said, I did get better low end response with bi wiring. And very noticeable.

 

No. In a conventionally wired speaker, the frequency division and routing is done inside the box. What bi-wiring does is offer the opportunity to divide the frequencies outside the box, routing lows through one cable and highs through the other. In the case of long cable runs using modest cables, this can significantly reduce intermodulation distortion that occurs within the cable, improving clarity and instrument separation, among other things. If both cables were used to route the entire spectrum, then the impedance of the cable would be halved, but this affects only amplifier damping of cone motion, it does not increase power or reduce speaker impedance.

 

there is no hard and fast rule - it all depends on how the crossover is built
there is also a lot of confusion here between knowing the difference between bi-wiring versus bi-amping

 

you are describing bi-amping, not bi-wiring (which is going to be the case anyway if you bi-amp obviously)
also, more than a few pro monitors make provision for bi-amping at the speaker itself by utilizing a switch and or plug to facilitate splitting the system's network

 

Cool. I did not recall reading anything like that in the user manual for my A-S2100. I’ll check again.

I think what Yamaha is referring to is the fact that increasing the effective gauge reduces DC loop resistance. For many people using undergauge speaker wire (e.g., a conventional single run of the typical 16AWG or 18AWG sold on rolls), two runs (for bi-wiring) creates a larger effective gauge. In runs over 10’ that often means literally higher volume because, e.g., two runs of 16AWG equals a single run of 13AWG. Less resistance equals less work for the amp and greater volume for a given dial setting on an amp. The longer the wire run to a pair of speakers, the larger the physical wire gauge needs to be to maintain a given volume. Louder volume equals more easily heard bass (and the reason why a so-called loudness control actually tilts low and mid-bass upward).

Connecting one pair of bi-wirable speaker terminals to each of the Yamaha’s (A & B) speaker outputs is not bi-amping because there’s only one stereo amp inside the Yamaha.

Anyway, I hope you get satisfying results from your bi-wiring experiments.

 

How so? Nowhere did I describe 2 amplifiers being used.

 

for what it's worth, you can bi-amp with a single receiver, IF the network allows you to split it (as I already said)
EV built a lot of speakers that way
you can also do it with today's outboard and outboard digital networks and just one (or two) power amps - and the coolest part of that is (with active networks) is you can play around with hand off frequencies and cut points
JBL's doing a lot of that

but yeah, you can have your dedicated HF amp and your dedicated LF amp but that's not the only way you can accomplish the goal of bi-amping

"bi-amp" is really just a verb with a prefix today

 

I can't see anything wrong with Ripblade's comment.

Actually, the notion of two cables used in bi-wiring making the path resistance half (or the gauge twice as large) is one of those old wive's tales of audio. Sounds good and logical, but just isn't true. In reality, two runs of 12ga cable configured for bi-wiring is the same gauge and resistance as a single run run of 12ga cable to no bi-wirable speakers.

Let's say you've got a single run of 12ga cable to a speaker that's 10ft long. That yields a total resistance of about 32mohms between amp output terminals and the speaker input terminals. Then, you remove the jumpers on the speaker and add a second 12ga cable from the amp to the open terminals on the speaker. Now, how much is the total resistance from the amp terminals to the speaker's high input terminals? Turns out, it is 32mohms, the exact same as the single run of 12ga. It doesn't matter if you put 4ga to the low input terminals of the speaker (or even completely remove the cable to the low input terminals), the path resistance to the high input terminals is the same. It works the same when doing the same thought experiment on the low terminals of the speaker. By definition of what bi-wiring is, the cable runs are NOT in parallel, because they have different destinations. Thus, two runs of 12ga cable used in bi-wire configuration is equivalent (guage and resistance wise) to a single run of 12ga.

Two runs of 12ga cable has the same amount of copper as a 9ga single run, but due to the virtues of the bi-wire hookup, it is electrically equivalent to the resistance of a 12ga single run. And, it won't play any louder.

 

I haven’t noticed louder, but clearer is undeniable in my system. I’ll buy the argument that one pair of twice as expensive speaker wire with replaced jumpers would have done the same thing or better, but I already had the one pair of cables when I added the second.

 

A topic where there is no one right answer and therefore prone to argument. It’s very possible for opposite opinions and experiences to be true. A very system dependent conversation.

Ive found the bi-wire can extend the high end detail. Not in ever case and not a better outcome in every case. If you feel you have speakers that are a Bit bright, a bi-wire can be a bad thing.

One thing to keep in mind is that if you have purchased biwired speaker cables, you might just be hearing the change of speaker cable vs how it is connected to the speaker. Bi-wire at the speaker does seem to be the overwhelming choice of new speakers. For me that makes it tough to be completely dismissive of it but on the grand scheme of things I don’t think it’s that big of a deal.

 

Any other differences you hear with biwiring (vs single wire with jumpers), Big Blue? I have been pondering biwiring for some time.

Thanks

 

Ummm.....no.

 

Ummm.....yeah.

 

what is the gauge and run length of your current cable set up?
Michael

 

Thanks for sharing this!