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Bi-Wiring, yes, again.

Discussion in 'Audio Hardware' started by Katz, Aug 29, 2019.

  1. Interesting.

    So it's a slightly different question depending upon your starting point....
     
    Randoms likes this.
  2. So, in truth, there is no single answer, and people will have to find their own answers by using their ears and being honest about what they're hearing.....
     
    chili555 and Randoms like this.
  3. Randoms

    Randoms Aerie Faerie Nonsense

    Location:
    UK
    Unless you can have a listen at a dealer, then probably, yes.
     
  4. Big Blue

    Big Blue Forum Resident

    Location:
    Wisconsin
    I mean, I think so. The main takeaway I get from people who insist bi-wiring isn’t worthwhile is that you can get better sound by spending twice as much on one run of cables than on two runs of lesser cable. I’m sure that’s true to a point, but I already had spent the money on one run of cables that I did not feel a need to replace. So I wasn’t spending twice as much, I was spending the same amount a second time.
     
  5. Big Blue

    Big Blue Forum Resident

    Location:
    Wisconsin
    And, yes, this seems like a good way to go if starting from no cable, or wanting to upgrade cable and have the option to try bi-wiring at no real additional cost. Might be the way I go when I eventually upgrade my amp, especially if that amp doesn’t have two sets of binding posts (currently using A and B outputs with banana plugs). Great suggestion!
     
    Doctor Fine likes this.
  6. Bolster

    Bolster If it ain't broke try harder..

    Location:
    UK
  7. Archimago

    Archimago Forum Resident

    Regarding that QED article, I find it a bit confusing what they're trying to prove. Yes, the current being carried by each leg of the biwire will vary because of the crossover and impedance differences. So what?

    What they have not shown is whether single or bi-wire cabling resulted in any change in the actual sonic output from the speaker. I know of no evidence showing this.

    IMO, after all these years for something as simple as biwiring to not have definitive evidence of effect suggests that there either is none or the effect is insignificant. Many other issues to worry about in life and audio :).

    For the record, I personally have not heard a difference nor can show a difference assuming one uses appropriate gauge speaker cables with low resistance.

    Archimago's Musings: MEASUREMENTS: Speaker Cables / Wires (Canare, Kimber, and the "Frankenstein" Zip Cord)
     
  8. siebrand

    siebrand Forum Resident

    Location:
    Italy
    my firstborn is always penniless, he has no money to cover the speakers, at the moment I lent him the Sonus Faber Parva3 first, but they do not satisfy much, because he wants more lower bass.
    then I give him my Ruark Talisman. These yes, the young gentleman likes them very much (hey hey ...).
    obviously, he now wants to know more about biwiring. I tried to explain it, but it's not easy.
    Oh well ... he will understand.
    My current Audiosonics DO NOT have biwiring. SF and Ruark yes, they do.

    poor boy ... how far you have to go, before you understand anything about the audiophile world ...:D
     
    jonwoody, ggg71 and Fishoutofwater like this.
  9. vinnn

    vinnn Forum Resident

    Location:
    England
    @Katz

    It's pointless taking measurements because;
    a) the effect of bi-wiring is different on different speakers/crossovers
    b) different combinations of cables will have a different audible effect
    c) lots of gear may not yield a difference at all

    A meaningful measurement has to be repeatable and this kind of stuff is very much down to what's being connected, also measurements don't tell you how something sounds so it's all down to hearing for yourself on your own gear.

    Personally I have my Monitor Audio Silver floorstanders bi-wired, with the combination of cables I'm using it has an improvement in the highs and a fuller, more consistent undercurrent of bass.
    I've also tried with previous combinations (mainly cheaper) gear/speakers/cables and the effect has either been not audible to me or had a negative effect so my current 2-channel system is the first time I've actually thought the bi-wiring was worth it but as always tweaks like this are subtle and not something to the break the bank over.
     
    Last edited: Apr 19, 2020
    Big Blue and siebrand like this.
  10. hyntsonsvmse

    hyntsonsvmse Johnny Guitar

    Location:
    northumberland
    i would advise that anyone inti biwire, take the next step and bi-amp. I have doing this for a few years now. It makes a massive difference.
     
    Big Blue likes this.
  11. siebrand

    siebrand Forum Resident

    Location:
    Italy
    It's pointless taking measurements because;...

    It's allways the same story. taking measurements on this kind of things is (imo) nonsense. It's pure nothing at all.
    Music should have been heard with our ears, and... Of course, with our heart.
    But NOT by numbers......
     
    vinnn likes this.
  12. Big Blue

    Big Blue Forum Resident

    Location:
    Wisconsin
    Do you bi-amp into the speakers’ own crossovers, or do you use an active crossover? I’ve read conflicting opinions (of course...) as to whether or not it’s pointless to bi-amp if you’re not going to use an active crossover.
     
  13. Phil Thien

    Phil Thien Forum Resident

    Location:
    Milwaukee, WI
    Once we find someone that can hear the difference in copper speaker wires via double blind testing, we can move on to see if people can really hear the difference in biwiring.

    The idea was to provide a means to biamplify. Some clever salesperson saw it as an opportunity to sell 2x more speaker wire to gullible audiophiles.

    And here we are.
     
    timind and William Bryant like this.
  14. 23jim

    23jim Member

    Location:
    60050
    I Bi-WIRED by Paradigm Monitor 9 v3 from my Denon 3802 AVR receiver (the weak point in system) and noticed a very nice improvement definitely much more than when when I tried biwiring them. Was a bigger pain to figure out how to do though.
     
  15. Raylinds

    Raylinds Resident Lake Surfer

    Paul from PS Audio often offers common sense advice about things audio. His opinion on this is that bi-wiring makes the most sense if you run a different cable type for the HF and LF connections. I just put in silver speaker cables which have given me much more high frequency information and details. I am considering experimenting with different cable for the lows, probably copper.
     
  16. hyntsonsvmse

    hyntsonsvmse Johnny Guitar

    Location:
    northumberland
    I've no idea. I wire up and play music. I don't know anything about active crossovers. Sorry
    I do know the sound is excellent with plenty of power.
    You are right that bi amping is excellent. Then there is monoblocing to complicate things further.
     
  17. F1nut

    F1nut Forum Resident

    Location:
    The Mars Hotel
    I believe you meant bi-amp instead of bi-wire. The thing is you can't bi-amp with an AVR because there is only one power supply feeding all the channels. That's not to mention that bi-amping requires the use of active crossovers.
     
  18. Ripblade

    Ripblade Forum Resident

    Location:
    The Six
    Passive bi-amping doesn't, as it takes the principle of bi-wiring and extends it to the amplification. And there's no reason a person couldn't use an AVR, but separate amps would be preferable.
     
  19. F1nut

    F1nut Forum Resident

    Location:
    The Mars Hotel
    At best it could be called ghetto bi-amping, but it's not actually bi-amping as the AVR channels are all sucking off the same power supply, which results in less power per channel. You can't rob Peter to pay Paul.

    The whole deal without active crossovers is rather pointless.
     
  20. ChrisR2060

    ChrisR2060 Forum Resident

    Location:
    Charlotte, NC
    Not sure about bi-wiring... you kind of add resistance doing it vs single-wiring.
    If you take a canare 4s11, it is 11 awg per leg in single-wiring, but it becomes 14 awg per leg in bi-wiring configuration, plus additional contact points in the path. 14 awg vs 11 for the tweeter, no big deal, but on the woofer/mid-range, half the copper can make a difference especially if a 4ohm driver is used.
     
  21. Ripblade

    Ripblade Forum Resident

    Location:
    The Six
    Agreed, but it can be done.
    That's what people are saying about bi-wiring, too.
     
  22. Gibsonian

    Gibsonian Forum Resident

    Location:
    Iowa, USA
    Good to know we're all together again on this!
     
    Mr. Bewlay likes this.
  23. DaveyF

    DaveyF Forum Resident

    Location:
    La Jolla, Calif
    I bi-wire from both my amps...Both amps are set up for bi wire, and the speakers are too. This is what I believe should be a major determining factor. I do know that my speaker manufacturer, Nordost, now does not recommend this solution. They claim, perhaps with some merit, that a bi-wire speaker cable induces phase distortion. I have not personally experienced this in my set up, but I can see where they are coming from IF the speakers are not set up for bi-wiring, or the amp also..otherwise, I’m not so sure.
     
  24. Bolster

    Bolster If it ain't broke try harder..

    Location:
    UK
    I keep falling in and out of love with bi wiring... so I thought I'd give it another go now that I have a new amp.

    To make it more interesting(?) my Audiolab only has one set of speaker binding posts (whaat!!) feeding into my diamond 230's four bi wire posts

    My interest was piqued by this article Bi-wiring Speakers: An exploration of the benefits -

    Well the placebo effect is working wonders and really pleased with how it all sounds...
     
    Last edited: Nov 21, 2020
    timind and Big Blue like this.
  25. Funky54

    Funky54 Coat Hangers do not sound good

    The reason in my opinion that some hear a difference and others don’t, is the speaker design. Does it use filters or crossovers. To the ney sayers, look closely at my cartoon drawing.

    [​IMG]Impedance, speed all different for each speaker and each draws from the amp what it needs instead of sharing one wire for all impedance and speed.. heat is different to.
     
    Big Blue likes this.

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