Big sonic improvements for little or no $

Discussion in 'Audio Hardware' started by bdiament, Oct 9, 2007.

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  1. bdiament

    bdiament Producer, Engineer, Soundkeeper Thread Starter

    Location:
    New York
  2. bdiament

    bdiament Producer, Engineer, Soundkeeper Thread Starter

    Location:
    New York
    Hi pedrohead,

    Inner tube below. Roller bearings above.

    Best regards,
    Barry
    www.soundkeeperrecordings.com
    www.barrydiamentaudio.com
     
  3. Key

    Key New Member

    Location:
    , USA
    Eliminating early reflections.

    If there is anything between you and the speakers - Desks, CRT monitors, mixing consoles, tables etc.. - get rid of it, move it somewhere else. Same for things to the sides of speakers with large polar patterns.

    I think one of the largest improvements in my little setup was when I finally got rid of the huge CRT monitor that was in between my speakers. It got rid of a lot of bad reflections and cleaned up the center channel and depth of field. I guess that's not the cheapest upgrade but still you can get the same thing by segregating your speakers from the Monitor/TV/home entertainment center. You can get rid of desks by wall mounting LCDs - which doesn't cost much.

    My bare minimum for a good sounding setup is proper equilateral stereo speaker placement, with the speakers pulled off of the wall at least 2 feet, and the early reflections minimized. Those 3 things can vastly improve the sound of your system and do not cost much more than some time and planning.
     
  4. discreplayboss

    discreplayboss Forum Resident

    Location:
    Orland Park, IL
    Better then the wood cups and way cheaper then anything else?

    Here's two things I found that might be a better cost-effective solution then using the furniture cups-

    http://www.starsoundtechnologies.com/apcd2.html for 9 bucks a piece.

    I think that their intended use is for folks who want spikes on the bottom of their gear, but don't have an appropriate surface underneath.

    Here's one other product I found that seem interesting for the discussion, and won't cost a ton-

    http://www.audioadvisor.com/prodinfo.asp?number=VBCONE
     
  5. bdiament

    bdiament Producer, Engineer, Soundkeeper Thread Starter

    Location:
    New York
    Hi discreplayboss,


    Neither of these products allows for motion, hence it would actually be used if one were seeking to couple their gear rather than isolate it.

    They will certainly effect a change in the sound but my experience is the changes resulting from coupling are somewhat random. They may produce a result the listener likes or they may produce the opposite. Proper isolation on the other hand, creates consistent and repeatable results.

    Coupling is often used to "paint" the tonal color of a component/system. Isolation on the other hand, makes for consistent improvements in performance, in every area I know how to describe (e.g. apparent bandwidth, dynamic response, soundstage dimensions, image solidity, overall focus, quieting the background to allow fine detail to be heard, etc.).

    Just my perspective.

    Best regards,
    Barry
    www.soundkeeperrecordings.com
    www.barrydiamentaudio.com
     
  6. wgriel

    wgriel Forum Resident

    Location:
    bc, canada
    Hi Barry,

    I was under the impression that the product in his second link (vibrapods) did allow some motion and isolation. Is that incorrect in your opinion?

    I do use a product similar to those mentioned in the first link with my speakers (I use Linn Skeets) and find I like the result, but use isolation on my components.
     
  7. bdiament

    bdiament Producer, Engineer, Soundkeeper Thread Starter

    Location:
    New York
    Hi wgriel,

    You are correct. Thank you for pointing this out.
    Vibrapods do offer a bit of compliance.
    In order to take advantage of this, they must be used in varying numbers, depending on the weight of the component.

    In my experience, their compliance is not the same as that of say, a roller or air bearing and it the material is inherently highly damped relative to other types of bearings. The increased damping will result in a somewhat lesser degree of isolation.

    Best regards,
    Barry
    www.soundkeeperrecordings.com
    www.barrydiamentaudio.com
     
  8. Ski Bum

    Ski Bum Happy Audiophile

    Location:
    Vail, CO
    I find that relatively inexpensive Vibrapods can be very helpful in determining whether isolation will be effective in improving the sound of a component. Because implementing isolation can be either expensive (if you buy the isolation device) or time-consuming (if you use a DIY technique), it can often be crucial to know in advance whether there is really a benefit to be achieved by isolating a particular component. In my experience, Vibrapods provide enough isolation to offer a prediction.

    Put the Vibrapods under the device in question. If the sound changes (it may actually get worse in some respects because the Vibrapods' partial isolation can provide some muddy color), then there is a real benefit that can be obtained through better isolation. If there is no sonic change from the Vibrapods, then more complete isolation is not likely to provide a benefit. Because Vibrapods are relatively inexpensive, easy to install and easy to reuse, you should be able to check out all of your components with one set.
     
  9. BigE

    BigE Forum Resident

    "Real isolation" should ALWAYS be an improvement.

    Unless your equipment is voiced to vibrate.

    ERic
     
  10. Ski Bum

    Ski Bum Happy Audiophile

    Location:
    Vail, CO
    I have yet to come across a turntable, tubed component or CDP that does not benefit from isolation. However, in my experience, some solid state components are not particularly affected by vibration (presumably anything will vibrate and produce a sonic effect if you shake it enough, but I have to start with the existing shelves on which the components sit as the base condition). I have sets of Aurios under a turntable, tubed phono preamp and universal disc player, and Aurio Pro Max's under 4 speakers, but if I cannot hear a difference by isolating a component I don't see the need to isolate it.
     
  11. BigE

    BigE Forum Resident

    You're correct, I haven't tried isolation with sand-amps. My Marantz is in a box in the garage and my Denon doesn't have room in the rack to get the roller bearings under it. All I can go by is what it has done for MY cdp, tube amps and speakers.

    I also agree that if you can't hear a discernible difference, why bother.

    Eric
     
  12. bdiament

    bdiament Producer, Engineer, Soundkeeper Thread Starter

    Location:
    New York
    Hi Hal,

    Agreed, however I would suggest a test with a device that is known to be a fully effective isolator, like a roller bearing or air bearing.

    Rollers can be rented from the Cable Company at low cost and an air bearing can be created with a <$2 child's bicycle inner tube.

    Note also that just to see if one hears the sound change, almost anything can be placed atop (or below) a component. In my experience, anything placed on top of a component or anything a component is placed atop, will to varying degrees, change its sound.

    Best regards,
    Barry
    www.soundkeeperrecordings.com
    www.barrydiamentaudio.com
     
  13. bdiament

    bdiament Producer, Engineer, Soundkeeper Thread Starter

    Location:
    New York
    Hi Hal,

    Different components will respond to varying degrees but I have yet to encounter one that is not effected. The only exception is a system that is not properly set up to begin with, for example, if the cables are all jumbled together, causing interference or if the AC is dirty, the benefits of isolation will be obscured.

    Solid state components? Try a DAC isolated. Vibrations in solid state circuits will induce spurious voltages (e.g. noise).

    While solid state amps may not show the same degree of performance improvements as DACs, speakers or source components, if the system is well set up and other things attended to, the benefits with solid state amps are indeed audible. They are with power conditioners too. In fact, if the system has everything else in order, I have yet to encounter any component that does not reveal clear benefits from isolation.

    Best regards,
    Barry
    www.soundkeeperrecordings.com
    www.barrydiamentaudio.com
     
  14. Ski Bum

    Ski Bum Happy Audiophile

    Location:
    Vail, CO
    Barry:

    You're too serious and methodical. I'm cheap and lazy, but just a bit practical. I purchased a set of 4 Vibrapod feet years ago for $10 at a show. I just stick them under the component's feet. If there is a change in sound, I order a set of Aurios (and the nifty hard balls you put on top of them) and install them under the component. If there is no change in sound, I go buy some records. :wave:
     
  15. discreplayboss

    discreplayboss Forum Resident

    Location:
    Orland Park, IL
    I thought those Audio Points Coupling Discs had rounded cup-like indentations, but I was thinking it through during my day and figured out they would beio more like a cone-shaped indentation. Still, if you were thinking of getting a machine shop involved, I'm thinking this would be a cheaper starting point, only needing the machine shop to make the cone a cup, then any other solution I have seen besides the furniture cups.
     
  16. bdiament

    bdiament Producer, Engineer, Soundkeeper Thread Starter

    Location:
    New York
    Hi discreplayboss,

    In my view, it would be better to have the machine shop start from scratch.

    The items you mention are thin and machining a bowl into one would make it thinner. I would predict such a device might lend a brightening to the sound of any component it supported. They're also too small diameter-wise for a bowl that would result in as low resonance a frequency as a good roller bearing should have.

    For a very inexpensive means of checking out the idea of rollers, there are also the "econo" rollers (<$5 for a set of three) I mention in my article.
    Make no mistake, the econo rollers are not great either. They merely demonstrate the principle (and to my ears, easily outperform some $400 sets of cones).

    Best regards,
    Barry
    www.soundkeeperrecordings.com
    www.barrydiamentaudio.com
     
  17. FastEddy

    FastEddy Member

    Location:
    North Californie
    bdiament: " ... While solid state amps may not show the same degree of performance improvements as DACs, speakers or source components, if the system is well set up and other things attended to, the benefits with solid state amps are indeed audible. ..."

    True, too true! The "line level" gadgets, DACs, pre-amps, line drivers ... all are dealing with "small signals" and those are relatively close, strength wise, to spurious noise, electronic and otherwise.

    If you plan on isolating any gadgets in your audio, suspending them on inner tubes, mounting them up on stilts or fine tips, do it to your DACs and pre-amps, et al.

    Stand alone power amps seldom need special treatments as by the time the "line level" signals get into the amp, they promptly get amplified and boosted way up ... way up above the lower mechanical and electronic noise levels.

    (Signal to noise ratios in pre-amps, DACs, etc. are relatively narrow, db wise. S / N in a power amp is much larger ... In other words: If your DACs are dirty, well ... we all hate it when that happens.)
     
  18. FastEddy

    FastEddy Member

    Location:
    North Californie
    In My Opinion = Improving Audio Quality of Your System:
    There are several things that should be done first, before anyone spends any real money.

    1) Speaker placement. Even the cheapest speakers can benefit from repositioning. Suggestions would be to move your speakers away from obstructions and away from the back or side walls. Try a bit more or a bit less. Pick your favorite positioning ... the best quality, most overlooked, test equipment is your own ears. What sounds best to you will usually come close to coinciding with elaborate test equipment. Experiment.

    2) Speakers rattle, thump, bump or boom? Smaller speakers can get a nice solid improvement in quality by simply holding them down and keeping them from bouncing around ... movement, even at low listening levels, absorbs a lot of content. I mean, do you want your speakers to move around or do you want them to move the air and make sound? Its all relative, you know. (I grab a couple of bricks or concrete blocks to hold down my bookshelf speakers until I get them positioned just right, then replace those with, well, books work!)

    3) A really cheap trick is to get some heavier speaker hook up wire. Those audiophiles who claim big results from special, extra heavy speaker cables are not really too far from the truth. This has to do with simple wire resistance, which can change speaker impedance, especially if you have a big separation between your speakers and amp. I use relatively common, Radio Shack #12 "flat" cables out to ten feet, but any #14 (AWG) gauge wire (or larger) will work, better anyway ... try some of that heavy duty #14 hardware store zip cord ... No kidding. (Watch out for phasing = hooking one speaker up "backwards" = + to +, red to red, black to brass, baby.)

    4) Elevate your speakers. This could be a part of #1 above. If you have your speakers sitting on the carpet, grab some cardboard boxes and boost them up off the carpet. It is usually true that heavy carpeting will absorb some of the mid range sound, thus muffling the backup vocals and maybe the rhythm guitar. Ideally the main drivers of your bookshelf speakers should be just below your ear level when you are sitting comfortably in front of your big screen, but here again, moving these around some, up, down, left right, fore, aft ... experimentation is called for again. Your ears will know when you have found that sweet spot.

    5) Your opinion may vary, but for my big money, I just can't find it in my heart to use those "surround sound" speakers. Most of the music I listen to is live music videos = stage performances, which are invariably recorded and mixed down to pure, old fashioned stereo, 'cause that's what the live audience paid to hear = stereo = stage left and stage right ... (the Dolby 5.1 or 7.1 or THX is added later, at the factory). Soooo ... I spend my big money on two of the best quality stereo main speakers that I can handle and never even hook up all those extra speakers ... Maybe I'm old fashioned, but at least I don't have all that lateral and reflected sound cancelation at a few frequencies right in the middle range.

    .... and all of that doesn't cost very much at all ...
     
  19. phallumontis

    phallumontis Active Member

    Location:
    Chicago, IL
    You're right on the money, FastEddy. I made speaker stands out of cinder blocks, stacked on their sides to increase mass and stability, sitting atop flexi-tile pavers to keep from scuffing the floor. Add some blu-tak and cupboard liner to decouple and guard the speakers from the "stands", and there is a huge improvement in tightness of bass. Previously the speakers were sitting on short wooden stools, which in turn were sitting on a wooden floor. When sitting between the speakers, the bass would make your head explode, even when you turned the bass all the way down. Now that they've been effectively isolated from the floor, they sound much better. Not to mention, the spiky absorption panel I put up has helped eliminate the standing waves that were adding to the nasty bass build-up.

    My next project is isolating my turntable. It's sitting on a glass panel in the rack, and when I touch the glass I can feel bass getting into it. I think I may go the butcher block/brass spikes route. More on that later.
     
  20. bdiament

    bdiament Producer, Engineer, Soundkeeper Thread Starter

    Location:
    New York
    Hi phallumontis,

    While you may like the results of placing your speakers on cinder blocks, know that what you are doing with this is coupling your speakers to the floor, not isolating them.

    This is a common terminology mistake (and functional misunderstanding) that is widely echoed on the web and also by many folks who write audio for a living. (Just look at the wide use of the term "isolation cones" or the parroting of the "mechanical diode" mythology.)

    Coupling is the opposite of isolating. With coupling, relative motion between the speakers and floor is minimized. Or, put another way, any motion in the floor is directly transferred to the loudspeakers (and vice versa). With isolation, relative motion is maximized (as the floor can move without directly moving the speakers).

    If you are interested, I would suggest trying isolation as well, for example, with a good set of roller bearings under each speaker. You may like what you hear.

    Best regards,
    Barry
    www.soundkeeperrecordings.com
    www.barrydiamentaudio.com
     
  21. phallumontis

    phallumontis Active Member

    Location:
    Chicago, IL
    Barry, thanks for your advice as always. I have tried in vain numerous times to find the "easter egg holders" that you mention on your website for construction of the roller bearings. Is there an online vendor you know of that would carry such a thing? Craft store employees tend to give me strange looks when I ask about them.
     
  22. bdiament

    bdiament Producer, Engineer, Soundkeeper Thread Starter

    Location:
    New York
    H phallumontis,

    Several years ago, when I first made "econo" roller bearings, I found the Easter egg holders in the small wooden parts section of a local A.C. Moore.
    Perhaps they offer these from their on-line site?

    Also, earlier in this thread, someone showed another type of device that could be used as the "bowl" of an econo roller bearing.

    Best regards,
    Barry
    www.soundkeeperrecordings.com
    www.barrydiamentaudio.com
     
  23. xmas111

    xmas111 Forum Resident

    Location:
    Plymouth MA
    These are the cups I used for my speaker isolation bases. They work great!

    bearing cups


    John
     
  24. FastEddy

    FastEddy Member

    Location:
    North Californie
    " ... My next project is isolating my turntable. ..."

    " ... With coupling, relative motion between the speakers and floor is minimized. Or, put another way, any motion in the floor is directly transferred to the loudspeakers (and vice versa). ..."

    " ... I found the Easter egg holders in the small wooden parts section of a local A.C. Moore. ..."

    " ... These are the cups I used for my speaker isolation bases. ..."

    This can get very subjective ... your ears are your best guide when either isolating or "coupling" speakers to your walls or floor or other massive or flimsy platform.

    Some speakers take to direct contact with walls or floor (or other) very nicely, often because they were designed to do so ( Mount on the wall planar speakers: http://www.magnepan.com/model_MMGW ).

    Cone bass driver type speakers may work best when "isolated" ... or not. There are even speaker kits that are intended to mount inside the wall boards, to take advantage of the hollow space to boost the bass ... or not.

    Experiment, experiment, experiment ... and save some serious bucks before you buy exotic stuff to "improve" what may not be improvements at all.

    As for turntables, well, serious isolation is usually the rule, rather than the exception. That fragile tone arm with those teeny tiny needles and pickups can be very susceptible to exterior sonic disturbances = noise can feed back through your turntable tone arm and really mess with the bass. :sigh:

    Maybe there should be several threads here about the pros and cons of turntable mounting ... and there probably are. Same, same for speakers ... and there probably are. :angel:
     
  25. TigerMMG

    TigerMMG New Member

    Location:
    NJ
    They are not subjective. They are clear and present improvement as I and a couple of others have experimented. I told them nothing about the cups and ball bearing on how they sound. I ask them to tell me how they sound to them. One has some idea as he is part of this forum but the other guy has no idea what to expect but he has a lot of experience with some isolation technique.

    I have tried to find the wooden easter egg holder but they are seasonal item and usually found at ceramic shop. I didn't find any so I ordered the Shepherd plastic castor cups that everyone said is great for the price.

    I found that the Shepherd cups were really too deep and not as shallow as Barry would wanted. The effect was really nice but I found it to be more bass heavy and the female singer sounds more like male singing. The overall effect was nice but not ideal.

    Then I bought "Symposium" cups. The aluminum cups were far superior to the Shepherd plastic cups in every way. The female voice is actually female voice. The mid to high frequencies were far clearer that I heard things I never heard before.

    The aluminum cups/bb is not enough by itself. I did the experiment with Barry's inner tube technique and without it... The difference between the two is huge and the inner tube technique is mandatory with the aluminum cups/bb for the maximum broad spectrum improvement.

    I put them under my prepro and amps. I have yet to put them under my Oppo or other components... I find myself that I need to upgrade my AV rack for higher shelves before I can properly do so.
     
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