Big sonic improvements for little or no $

Discussion in 'Audio Hardware' started by bdiament, Oct 9, 2007.

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  1. TigerMMG

    TigerMMG New Member

    Location:
    NJ
    SS is AFFECTED by vibration. All my stuff is SS and it does make a monster difference.
     
  2. FastEddy

    FastEddy Member

    Location:
    North Californie
    " ... SS is AFFECTED by vibration. ..."

    Indeed it is. Physical "law" dictates that everything in the universe has some effect of each other part, whether the yard stick of measurement is Newtonian or Einsteinian or the latest stringy theories. But distance matters ... that butterfly in the rain forest may cause a hurricane later, but probably won't affect your sound equipment, unless you live in Florida.

    The flow of electrons is a physical phenomena, whether passing down a copper wire or crossing a silicon semiconductor barrier, is affected by physical, mechanical phenomena. Local humidity in the air around your equipment can act as transmitter to your sensitive, receiver like op-amps and power dissipation through your heat sinks.

    :winkgrin: ... makes me sweat just thinkin' 'bout it.
     
  3. qrarolu

    qrarolu Forum Resident

    Location:
    Stockholm, Sweden
    Now I have made my first efforts with the bicycle tube and bearings and I think the results are positive, though I haven't listened much yet.

    I put the bicycle tube on the shelf with an 1" MDF board with lots of holes drilled, on top. On the MDF I put three Symposium rollerblocks jr and 3 Symposium Point Pads and on this my Nottingham Interspace turntable. The MDF also has a long hole and a cavity on the upside where I can reach the valve to inflate the tube without moving the equipment, pretty neat.

    Now I have read here that small pieces of anything in-between the bearings and the turntable is not recommended, that is, I shouldn't use the Point Pads but a marble tile.

    Now I wonder, why is the marble tile better than for example a board of pine-wood with a sheet of aluminium glued underneath? The marble tile is very heavy and I thought we wanted to avoid heavy materials.

    / Robert
     
  4. bdiament

    bdiament Producer, Engineer, Soundkeeper Thread Starter

    Location:
    New York
    Hi Robert,


    The purpose of the tile is to provide a hard, smooth surface for the balls of the roller bearings to contact. I find one large surface is better than several smaller ones, as the latter might be prone to "chatter", something that does not occur with a single, larger surface.

    A pine board with a sheet of aluminum glued underneath *might* work as well as the tile, IF it is as flat as a good tile and as smooth as a good tile and as rigid as a good tile. I would suggest the aluminum be at least 3 mm thick.

    Hope this helps.
    Let us know of your experiences as you proceed.

    Best regards,
    Barry
    www.soundkeeperrecordings.com
    www.barrydiamentaudio.com
     
  5. nicholas029

    nicholas029 Forum Resident

    Location:
    Oregon
    Thank you, Mr. Diament. The "best bang for the buck" improvement I have made in my system came from reading and subsequently applying your advice for speaker placement. Your contributions to this forum have been generous.
     
  6. FastEddy

    FastEddy Member

    Location:
    North Californie
    nicholas029: " ... The "best bang for the buck" improvement I have made in my system came from reading and subsequently applying [Mr. Diament's] advice for speaker placement. ..."

    Ditto That! ... probably the most important and cheapest improvement.

    Example = Small room w/ bookshelf speakers: try them closer to the hard, "bright" corners with breathing room around them and at eye level when seated, listening ... slight angles sometimes help. Its not necessarily the separation as much as the corner reflection that does the neat trick.
     
  7. marka

    marka Forum Resident

    Barry,

    I love this thread and the related ones! What a wealth of useful information!

    I've finally had some time to begin to isolate things, and am looking forward to the results. A few questions about the plywood platform:

    - You use maple, which I've not seen here in the few places I've looked. Am I to take from your use of maple that the platform should be make from a hardwood-based plywood? Or does it matter?

    - Aside from cost, is there any reason why plywood should be used instead of a solid piece of wood ( I may have a spare cutting board around!)?

    - I've not seen any 1" plywood around, though I've only looked at two places. Can more than one piece be stacked on another without impacting the needed effect?

    - I'm using those Shepherd's furniture cups that others seem to have had success with (we got a lot of strange looks at craft stores asking for Easter egg holders in October!). And we have steel ball bearings. Should the cups be fastened to the plywood, or is it okay to leave them unfastened?

    Thanks for sharing with us!
     
  8. bluesky

    bluesky Senior Member

    Location:
    south florida, usa
    Sure it's been mentioned but raising the speakers so the tweeters are at ear level. Dramatic change.
     
  9. bdiament

    bdiament Producer, Engineer, Soundkeeper Thread Starter

    Location:
    New York
    Hi marka,

    The (Enjoyyourshelf) racks I designed use a solid maple superstructure. Since the platforms are not physically attached, they can be made of any material (i.e. the racks allow for experimentation). I started with 1" ply because I found it superior to the MDF I saw being used in many places. The choice of maple was for its appearance. So, I would think any nice, hard 1" ply would work as well.


    In my experience, ply is inherently "deader" than solid wood and often more rigid as well. Another factor that comes into play is weight: I found the ply to weigh less; all other things being equal (as if that ever happens ;-}), the lighter platform will be less subject to storing energy (which it will of course, later release).


    I don't see a problem with stacking say, two properly glued 1/2" thicknesses.


    No need to fasten the cups to the plywood. In fact, they will need to be in different places (making different size equilateral triangles), depending on what you place atop them at any given time.

    Aren't the Shepherd's cups made of plastic? Those will certainly give an idea of what rollers can do but if you like the results, I would highly recommend finding a machinist to make rollers for you out of something like 7075 aluminum. With aluminum, you can determine the precise shape of the "bowl" and get a much harder, smoother surface, resulting in a much better performing roller bearing.

    Hope this helps.

    Best regards,
    Barry
    www.soundkeeperrecordings.com
    www.barrydiamentaudio.com
     
  10. James Glennon

    James Glennon Senior Member

    Location:
    Dublin, Ireland
    How about using using the cup on top instead of a tile under the speaker, e.g. cup (bottom), ball bearing, cup (top)?

    JG
     

    Attached Files:

  11. bdiament

    bdiament Producer, Engineer, Soundkeeper Thread Starter

    Location:
    New York
    Hi JG,

    In my experience, using an additional cup on top has two issues:

    1. Ball motion is damped appreciably more than with one cup. Greater damping leads to a shallower (i.e. less steep) roll-off above resonance. In English, this means there is less isolation.

    2. Depending on the surface they contact, using cups on top, in contact with what is being supported results in less than optimal contact. The sonic consequence is a tendency to add a bit of brightness. In my experience, well implemented roller bearings will not alter tonality; they just allow the gear to perform its best.

    I haven't found anything better than a single large, hard, smooth surface under the speaker. Tiles are not hard to find and don't cost much either, which is a nice addition to the fact that they work well.

    Hope this helps.

    Best regards,
    Barry
    www.soundkeeperrecordings.com
    www.barrydiamentaudio.com
     
  12. James Glennon

    James Glennon Senior Member

    Location:
    Dublin, Ireland
    Thanks for that Barry, I thought I was having one of my brainstorms!

    Great thread, hard to believe it has been going since 2007!. This thread really has legs!

    JG
     
  13. tribby2001

    tribby2001 Forum Resident

  14. bdiament

    bdiament Producer, Engineer, Soundkeeper Thread Starter

    Location:
    New York
    Hi tribby2001,

    Sorbothane is an odd case; I call it a "partial isolator" because in the implementations I've experience, it has a resonance that is considerably higher than optimal. Since isolation begins at a frequency approximately 1.4x the resonance, Sorbothane's isolation from my perspective, tends to start a bit high up in the range.

    A $2 child's bicycle tire inner tube -properly inflated only enough to lift the load off its inflation valve- can far outperform this, with a resonance in the low single digits.

    Just my perspective, of course.

    Best regards,
    Barry
    www.soundkeeperrecordings.com
    www.barrydiamentaudio.com
     
  15. thegage

    thegage Forum Currency Nerd

    I have never had good results with sorbothane. To my ears it deadens the sound and reduces PRaT.

    Oh, and years ago a company (can't remember the name) made sorbothane tube dampers that were supposed to be heat resistant. Ha! The melted and ran down into the tube sockets . That was fun to clean up.

    John K.
     
  16. bdiament

    bdiament Producer, Engineer, Soundkeeper Thread Starter

    Location:
    New York
  17. marka

    marka Forum Resident

    Hi Barry! Thanks for your reply! Lots of good info.

    Great. Glad I asked. I found some nice formaldehyde-free oak plywood, though they didn't have 1/2" either. So I'll be gluing 1/4" to the 3/4".

    Yes, plastic. I'll use them for testing(after removing the rubber ring each has on the bottom), and then go looking for a machinist that can do this correctly.

    Anyone here have much success in this area? I'm wondering if there's a machinist that someone has used (and therefore knows *exactly* what we want) that might be interested in doing an additional quantity.

    Indeed. Have been getting odd remarks from clerks watching me knock on marble tiles ("Who's there?")!

    Thanks again!
     
  18. fredhammersmith

    fredhammersmith Forum Resident

    Location:
    Montreal, Quebec
    I, like many other readers of this thread, can't go to the hardware store without looking for the right combo of bearings and cups...
    I've been referred to this place... Do those "isobearings" (25$/each) fit the needs?
     
  19. bdiament

    bdiament Producer, Engineer, Soundkeeper Thread Starter

    Location:
    New York
    Hi fredhammersmith,

    In my view, those aren't the ticket.
    Some folks have found concave drawer pulls at home supply stores. Those can be embedded in a small block of wood (say 2" x 2" x 1/2" or 2" x 2"x 3/4") with some deadening material, like BluTak under the "bowl".

    What is required in my view, is a compliant structure with a resonance in the low single digits. This rules out devices like the one in the link. With the right structure, we have a mechanical low-pass filter; a "spring" that will block seismic vibrations from entering the gear.

    Once you hear what a well designed and implemented set of roller bearings can do for gear (any gear but especially digital gear and perhaps even moreso, loudspeakers), you'll wonder why this hasn't been shouted from the audio rooftops. In fact, one or two folks have been doing this but it gets lost in all the noise. Took me years to try after I first heard about (and dismissed) the idea. One listen and I was sold. One listen under speakers and my world changed.

    Best regards,
    Barry
    www.soundkeeperrecordings.com
    www.barrydiamentaudio.com
     
  20. uncleroy

    uncleroy Forum Resident

    Location:
    usa
    I am sure it has been mentioned in this thread but my search hasn't turned up anything. How well does the inter tube/ball stand work for suspended turntables (Thorens)? It seems redundant at best, harmful at worst. Any experiences? Thanks
     
  21. bdiament

    bdiament Producer, Engineer, Soundkeeper Thread Starter

    Location:
    New York
    Hi uncleroy,

    In my experience, it isn't a good idea to have more than one "spring" in any given plane of motion.

    The Thorens already has vertical springs, so something like an inner tube (which isolates primarily in the vertical plane) would likely result in both sets of springs interfering with each other.

    On the other hand, 'tables like the Thorens (and AR and Linn) don't provide useful isolation in the horizontal (or rotational) planes. I would try roller bearings (which isolate in the horizontal and rotational planes) in cases like this.

    Hope this helps.

    Best regards,
    Barry
    www.soundkeeperrecordings.com
    www.barrydiamentaudio.com
     
  22. uncleroy

    uncleroy Forum Resident

    Location:
    usa
    excellent, that was my thought on the matter. Thank you Mr. Diament
     
  23. Attached Files:

  24. fredhammersmith

    fredhammersmith Forum Resident

    Location:
    Montreal, Quebec
    not available anymore.
    a sh.tv member blitz?
     
  25. james

    james Summon The Queen

    Location:
    Annapolis
    I'm only 10 or so years into hi-fi, and it's actually been mostly mid-fi.

    There are a few things I cannot distinguish from one another, or any sort of noticeable improvement:

    - any cable
    - most good digital sources
    - any sort of vibration accessory on a solid state/digital equipment
    - solid state amps of a similar, mid fi price bracket

    I can tell the difference, usually major, between:

    - speakers
    - speaker placement
    - phono carts

    Most people would think "lucky bastard", but it confuses me. I get bummed out buying a new item and it makes no noticeable improvement. I don't understand because I think my hearing is pretty precise.
     
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