Bill Evans... new Boxset from AP

Discussion in 'Music Corner' started by abor1g, Dec 5, 2009.

  1. SongAndDanceMan

    SongAndDanceMan Forum Resident

    Location:
    Vancouver
    I hope this doesn't come back for quite a while. I would really like to see what Craft is going to do with some of these titles first. Surely they have some big plans
     
  2. captouch

    captouch Forum Resident

    Location:
    Bay Area, CA
    Packaging all 11 Riverside albums together in 2x45rpm format when many are only 35-40 minutes positions them as a premium/audiophile offering - once you do that, seems all bets are off pricing wise. But as long as the OJC versions are out there and in print, positioning Evans’ music being only available to the elite is a stretch.
     
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  3. Greenmonster2420

    Greenmonster2420 Forum Resident

    Location:
    Central Ohio
    You cannot update quantity for a preorder online. It may be possible via phone, but they’d likely say no. I’ve never tried.
     
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  4. 4-2-7

    4-2-7 Forum Resident

    Location:
    SF Peninsula
    Record prices change, they always have over time and demand changes as well. Just because you bought something at a cheaper price than the time you might sell something, doesn't mean you should only sell it at the original cost. To a friend, maybe, hell to them you can gift it.

    But I have been seeing a trend lately that makes no sense at all, others out right talking about shaming others that they shouldn't be charging more for the records they bought at a cheaper price. They are a nasty nasty flipper, they don't care about the music, on and on it's laid across these pages. Guess what, they are not going to sell a record or anything that gained value over their original purchase price.

    That's like saying if you bought a RL Zep II when new for $3.00 you should sell it for that today. How about a Beatles Butcher you bought new for $1.50?
    Demand changes wildly with some records, if some are in demand and the market dictates a price for it them that's the price regardless what your initial cost is.

    I have countless records I bought new that sell for less and some sell for more, some a lot more. This also extends into used records, if I bought a DCC title used for $15 and todays market is selling them for $300, then it's a $300 record give or take. It's just what it is, it's a fluctuating market driven by demand and rarity, if someone wants something out of my collection, they can pay the fair market value at the time.
     
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  5. Greenmonster2420

    Greenmonster2420 Forum Resident

    Location:
    Central Ohio
    I will use your baseline of 95 for the AP for my numbers. I haven’t heard the one step, and while I have heard a first press mono, it wasn’t on my system (and obviously a different mix), so exactly what 100/100 is, I don’t know. So for the copies I own, I’d score them as such:

    Ap 45 - 95
    Japan VMI - 80
    OJC - 75

    My digital front end pales in comparison to my LP chain, so I won’t include that.
     
  6. ssmith3046

    ssmith3046 Forum Resident

    Location:
    Arizona desert
    A hundred dollar a barrel oil is coming. We might see Dynaflex records again!
     
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  7. Greenmonster2420

    Greenmonster2420 Forum Resident

    Location:
    Central Ohio
    Yeah, I agree. People like to make anyone asking market price, or close to it, as a flipper, but to me that’s a totally different thing. A flipper is someone who buys something purely on speculation for a future profit. And that doesn’t seem like a very good business model to me. Plenty of records do not increase in price and even decrease. Seems like a silly game to play for what is ultimately not that much money. This seems to happen most with the extremely limited titles like the Music Matters SRX titles.

    If I sell a record from my collection, I ask market value. For friends and some on the forum, I will offer a much better price. But I choose to do that because I have gotten great deals here and through other friends in the community and it is nice to pay it forward now and then.
     
  8. It is different when it’s a label/manufacturer than someone flipping one copy
     
  9. 4-2-7

    4-2-7 Forum Resident

    Location:
    SF Peninsula
    I speculate all the time, not necessarily for profit as much as holding value and covering other losses. I look at everything I buy that way, I will not go and buy Taiwanese tools and will spend more for Snap-On, Mac, S&K. As soon as you bought the Taiwanese tools you just lost money because you'll never recoup any of it. The Snap-On tools sell for more than I bought them for 15- 20 years ago, just due to inflation and demand. Could I have bought better sounding stereo equipment than McIntosh? Yes I'm sure I would have been happy with something else that sounded just as good for cheaper. However mac holds it's value and follows closely to the current MSRP for like units. I can sell my MC275 Mk VI for more than I bought it for at full retail plus tax 10 years ago. I was able to enjoy them all this time and can at least break even in dollars anyway, all be it the dollar doesn't have the same purchasing power as then.

    It's just the way I think when converting dollars into a commodity, everything is a commodity. I do this with records, trying to get the best in demand titles, but I don't stop there. I like all records so I'll have many same titles and even buy dups of new records. Selling a record down the road that went up in value helps pay for losses and even the second copy. It's not really making money it's covering losses and keeping the value of my collection in the black.

    If I had to estimate my collection has cost me around $200,000, however smart shopping, speculating, inflation, demand and thinking about it in order of not taking a loss is maybe worth $450,000 on the top end. Thats if I sell it, if I sell a record here and there for 3x, 4x what I paid so be it. I look at things I buy as enjoyment, but you don't have to loose worth doing it. After all it might help me live better when I'm not working, all these toys I spend money on.
     
  10. Fizzle

    Fizzle Well-Known Member

    Location:
    Usa
    Brilliant.
     
  11. Swordsandchains

    Swordsandchains I have come here to chew bubblegum…

    Location:
    Chicago
    exactly, not sure how this conversation turned how it did
     
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  12. Addercakes

    Addercakes Forum Resident

    Location:
    UK
    Spot on.

    It's not like it's an original copy that was pressed back in the 60's that can never be duplicated.

    This is a product that is being manufactured today, in their very own pressing plant, that can be repressed and duplicated again and again.

    Orignal pressings are boutique, pieces of history, and some might say antiques. These audiophile reissues are inflated, full of marketing BS and hype. The bottom will fall out eventually on these.
     
  13. AnalogJ

    AnalogJ Hearing In Stereo Since 1959

    Location:
    Salem, MA
    No, you're making it out to be a black or white issue.

    Selling your own personal copy is one thing. What most people have a problem with is when someone buys multiple copies of limited edition item with the intent of turning around and selling it for more (There are those who will buy multiples from multiple sources). Buying multiple copies creates premature sellouts, keeping others from buying it at retail. It's pure greed. That buyer does nothing to earn that money but to help create premature obsolescence.

    To show my argument with numbers in the extreme, 1500 people could sell out an edition of 7500 copies by buying 5 copies each. That would leave 6000 people out who wished to buy the item at retail. You could have 7500 different potential buyers instead.

    In the end, if you want to flip your copy, it's up to you. But there is a moral high and low ground at play here, as uncomfortable it may be for flippers to think about.
     
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  14. joshbg2k

    joshbg2k Forum Resident

    Location:
    US
    Well, I’d modify that a bit to - A flipper is someone who buys something purely on speculation for a quick profit.

    It’s this kind of selling that irritates me, and indeed this kind of selling has now been banned with respect to recent RSD items. I’ve been around this place for a few years, and this kind of seller didn’t exist until pretty recently.

    Perhaps one reason for that is that it’s antisocial, and kind of sleazy, and at least at one point we were all friends here (I hope that is still the case) and friends wouldn’t do that to each other, and so a rule wasn’t needed.

    We should not conflate flipping with asking market value for something from your collection. It’s two very different things.
     
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  15. 4-2-7

    4-2-7 Forum Resident

    Location:
    SF Peninsula
    All records are limited, I'v said this many many times. At some point a specific title will go OOP, if it's a good one it will have a demand for it always. I always think about this when buying things and not just records, will it have value after I buy it?

    First off I buy music I like, I also buy multiple copies of each, have been doing this for many, many years. The real problem is this entitlement mentality of saying people shouldn't do this and that it's a moral issue. This is in fact a view that you're entitled to get everything you want at the cheapest price you can. If the market changes, demand increases and the price goes up to a value many are willing to pay, you blame the one who had foresight and bought two, three or more than one. You're also doing it too Chad and AS, they can't raise their prices to what the market is willing to pay. It's like who are you to say what people can charge when they sell what they own?

    If you or anyone wanted this set you'v had 11 years to get it, the longer you wait, hem and haw over the price the more expensive it will get. This box set, one doesn't even need to speculate, it's going up in cost, clean sealed copies sell for more than Chad is asking for the new ones.


    LMAO
    I really think you should look at the entitlement view that you should be able to buy anything you want when you want it at a price you want it to be. I'm sorry to have to tell you the world doesn't work like this, we cant have everything we want. Most of use can't afford everything our whims want, unless it's free, but nothing is free in this world.
     
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  16. 4-2-7

    4-2-7 Forum Resident

    Location:
    SF Peninsula
    Over on Audiokarma I started threads in the classified for members to network together for RSD titles at cost. It worked out really good having many people shopping across the states, everyone mostly got everything they wanted. This really had grown over the years where as it just wasn't friends participating in it. We would see some selling the records instantly elsewhere, so we pulled the covers on them and tried to make it a rule the best we could.
     
  17. patient_ot

    patient_ot Senior Member

    Location:
    USA
    If Craft ever gets with the program they have a huge treasure trove of jazz records that could be done AAA and would probably sell very, very well. Riverside era Bill Evans stuff is a no-brainer.
     
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  18. teag

    teag Forum Resident

    Location:
    Colorado
    AP should release them separately as 45rpm. They sold well when some were available separately prior to the box set.
     
  19. 4-2-7

    4-2-7 Forum Resident

    Location:
    SF Peninsula
    I agree here with this, they have always had that option to all there box sets. Sometimes it bites them in the a$$ doing it, but everyone is happy then.
     
    Last edited: Oct 13, 2021
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  20. captouch

    captouch Forum Resident

    Location:
    Bay Area, CA
    If they wanted to make as much $ as they’re making on the set, they’d need to price them at $80-85. I’m guessing they have licenses in equal numbers for all albums, so if they issued them separately, Village Vanguard, Waltz, Explorations, Moonbeams, etc would sell out instantly and they may be left with copies of New Jazz Conceptions, Interplay, and maybe Manne Hole.

    By selling them as a set, they kind of “force” you to pay the $80-85 for albums most wouldn’t pay that for in order to get the ones you really really want.

    Not saying their “buy the entire set or get nothing” approach is customer friendly, but it makes a certain amount of business sense. A similar approach is taken on a lot of these super deluxe box sets where you really want only a portion of what’s in the box, but have to go without, pony up and bite the bullet to buy the set, or get lucky to find the piece you want sold separately at an acceptable price.

    What I’ve seen others do on this Evans box is buy the set, keep the ones they want, and sell off the unwanted ones as singles. This made a lot more sense at the $600 price point though when the average cost per album was $55, not $82. Someone probably could have bought the set and parted them all out as singles and made some $. That approach wouldn’t be a given at the new price point, but if you were willing to pay out-of-print market pricing (say ~$100 per 2x45rpm LP) for iconic albums for at least half of them, I’m pretty sure you’d be able to sell the rest off at price points that would allow you to get the albums you really wanted at $100/LP. Someone would no doubt be willing the buy the box itself and booklet too.

    There really aren’t any clunkers in the set, and I’d argue that 8/11 are essential must haves if you’re really into Bill Evans. I only think New Jazz Conceptions and Interplay are “OJC is good enough” level. Even Manne Hole is a pretty great album that I would have at least considered paying $100 for to get the best version of.
     
  21. teag

    teag Forum Resident

    Location:
    Colorado
    Sad but mostly true.
     
  22. 4-2-7

    4-2-7 Forum Resident

    Location:
    SF Peninsula
    I mentioned above they get bit in the A$$. When they did the The Doors – Infinite Box Set in 2013 they also had the individual titles out at the same time. The box set was $400 that gave you 6 titles a really nice book and a numbered box, limited to 2500. The records individually cost $50 each so that's $300, many people bought the records only to save $100. AP had extra books and boxes you could buy for a $100 if you wanted to put a non number set together. Between these extra boxes/books, and the $400 set they lasted forever on their site. They may have sold the last of it around a year or two ago.

    Now that they are finally sold out the box set can sell for $1500-$1600. This box sat for years and nobody was pushing the price up till they are all gone. I think people want stuff that is not available because I just don't understand this. The records are all still being sold individually, all be it not the first pressings. The funny thing is, you can't really speculate with AP records, Chad doesn't let anything go out of print. This Riverside collection was limited to 1500 numbered copies originally. Then in 2017 he did another numbered run not honoring what they said with the first ones. They carry the same catalog number and the difference being QRP pressing opposed to Pallas Germany. Now as he sees demand he is saying they will do another run, it never ends LOL. If people are bitching about the price hike, what about the very first buyers in 2010 who though they where getting a limited to 1500 box set?

    I don't think he'll do another Infinite Box Set because it went so bad for him, but if it goes up to $2000 all bets are off, he'll want a piece of that action.
     
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  23. Tribute

    Tribute Forum Resident

    Again, I believe Bill Evans himself would be very upset that his music is in the middle of all of this merchandising
     
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  24. 4-2-7

    4-2-7 Forum Resident

    Location:
    SF Peninsula
    That's life, that was his life making music and selling records, it supported him.
     
  25. Greenmonster2420

    Greenmonster2420 Forum Resident

    Location:
    Central Ohio
    Of course, there is a real possibility that none of this is AP’s call at all. Concord could have just said, “Yeah, we will renew your license for x amount of box sets at 45rpm”.

    This was the just I got when speaking to someone senior at Acoustic Sounds. Early this year or late last year. They basically told me Impulse and Prestige sets would not be repressed, but they were very optimistic for the Bill Evans set, because it is a box set, 45rpm, luxury item and would not really be competition to what the label would be considering releasing. That is about the time I started telling anyone who would listen on this site, no guarantees, but this box was likely coming back and Prestige and Impulse will not be coming back.

    Fast forward a few months and they sell the prestige and Impulse sets for a huge mark up, and then several more months and this is coming back.
     
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