Billy Joel "The Stranger"

Discussion in 'Music Corner' started by Carl Hoffmann, Jun 20, 2002.

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  1. Carl Hoffmann

    Carl Hoffmann Senior Member Thread Starter

    Location:
    Pennsylvainiaville
    I recently purchased a SACD copy of this classic and have been doing some critical listening. The only other version I have is the orginal CBS compact disc. I'm not sure if I'm completely comfortable with the way the SACD was done. Of course I've never heard the remaster or an original vinyl either. Just seems like there is too much dynamic hocus pocus going on with this one. The original disc is a much more relaxed listen in comparison. Can anyone comment perhaps on what the original vinyl or master tape sounds like?
     
  2. Sckott

    Sckott Hand Tighten Only.

    Location:
    South Plymouth, Ma
    The original vinyl has a very smooth delicate sound to it.

    What you're describing on the SACD is the same thing I could describe with the 20-Bit remaster.
     
  3. Carl Hoffmann

    Carl Hoffmann Senior Member Thread Starter

    Location:
    Pennsylvainiaville
    I kinda figured as much....Bummer! Why do these people screw with such a good and simple thing? I guess that goes for "52nd Street" as well? Any good resources for a quality vinyl pressing?
     
  4. Grant

    Grant Life is a rock, but the radio rolled me!

    Yeah, but why are you asuming the vinyl or CBS CD were more accurate? Just because something is remastered does not make it bad. If the SACD (which I have only breifly heard) is more like the 90s remaster, I would say that the SACD is more of a representation of what is on the SACD, provided the transfer was flat.
     
  5. Sckott

    Sckott Hand Tighten Only.

    Location:
    South Plymouth, Ma
    the SACD Mch of "52nd St" is wonky, but a lot of fun. The 2ch wasn't as brassy.

    The nice thing about SACD is you can send the a-outs to a decent EQ. Not that it's something I would eagerly do.
     
  6. Sckott

    Sckott Hand Tighten Only.

    Location:
    South Plymouth, Ma
    No, I have to say they kinda over EQ'd The Stranger. The original CD is been the best so far. It sounds like a more dynamic version of the vinyl, and I even own the JPN pressing Lp, which isn't that bad either.

    The 20-bit remaster and the SACD that I heard [last week], isn't 'easy listening' at all. You'd be able to tell immediately, Grant. "Italian Resturant" tells the story. Listen to the LP, then play one cut on the SACD. EEK!
     
  7. Kevin Sypolt

    Kevin Sypolt Senior Member

    Location:
    Wilmington, NC
    Both Billy Joel SACDs are "Mastered to SACD" by Stephen Saper. This is why I avoid all SACDs mastered by Stephen Saper... Everyone is bright, loud and compressed. Not enjoyable to listen to at all! Unfortunately, Stephen has been a "busy" little beaver in the Sony SACD camp...
     
  8. Carl Hoffmann

    Carl Hoffmann Senior Member Thread Starter

    Location:
    Pennsylvainiaville
    Stephen Saper may be partly to blame, but wasn't the real damage done by Ted Jensen who did the remaster?
     
  9. Ronflugelguy

    Ronflugelguy Resident Trumpet Geek

    Location:
    Modesto,Ca
    The Mastersound of "52nd Street" sounds fine, it was recomended to me by Dave, and BTW thanks, Dave.
     
  10. Metralla

    Metralla Joined Jan 13, 2002

    Location:
    San Jose, CA
    Folks, I just have to disagree about the Billy Joel SACDs. As luck would have it, I just played all three Sony discs in a row - "An Innocent Man" is still spinning. So I'm having a Billy Joel evening and I'm digging it.

    Stephen Saper indeed authored "The Stranger" and "52nd Street", but "An Innocent Man" was authored for SACD by Jen Wyler. It is noted on the back of "The Stranger" that it was remastered by Ted Jensen, and on "52nd Street" that it was "mastered" by Ted Jensen. I don't know if there is something special implied by the choice of words.

    There is no note about remastering on "An Innocent Man".

    To be honest, I've never been a big fan of Billy Joel - by that I mean I have enjoyed his music, but only owned one record; no CDs. Despite that, I find the SACDs very enjoyable and not bright at all. I don't feel they are overly compressed, but I don't have a comparative history to bolster this statement. All I can say is I think the SACDs are great; and I have his classical SACD and I like that too.

    We all have different systems of course, but mine is not reticent in the top end by any stretch. And yet I would never have thought of these three SACDs as bright. I recall someone posting a few days ago that they just got into SACDs, and bought "Thriller" but were taking it back because it was too bright. I have that too - and it seems just right on in the treble on my system.

    Just my experience of course; no disrespect intended to other posters who hold a different view.

    Regards,
    Metralla
     
  11. Carl Hoffmann

    Carl Hoffmann Senior Member Thread Starter

    Location:
    Pennsylvainiaville
    Metralla,

    I can't speak for all of the discs, but I don't think the problem with "The Stranger" is that it's too bright. To me it's just a completely different mix than the original. Much more aggressive sounding. I'm not saying it's absolutely terrible either. Again, it's had some equeing or mixing done that gives it a totally different feel. For you, the SACD may very well work......but you should give the original a try if you have a chance.
     
  12. Ben

    Ben New Member

    Location:
    Phoenix, Arizona
    I just got done listening to the Gold Mastersound of "52nd Street."


    On my Rega Planet.


    I don't really know how it could sound much better....
     
  13. Dave

    Dave Esoteric Audio Research Specialist™

    Location:
    B.C.
    Ah yes Ben, one that they got right.;)
     
  14. Carl Hoffmann

    Carl Hoffmann Senior Member Thread Starter

    Location:
    Pennsylvainiaville
    Good to hear.....I just ordered a gold 52nd St. for $16. Just about the same amount that I would have tossed at the SACD version. Thanks for the feedback and advice guys!!!
     
  15. Dave

    Dave Esoteric Audio Research Specialist™

    Location:
    B.C.
    Well Carl, you not only got a real good recording, you also got a really good price. Enjoy man.:D
     
  16. Ben

    Ben New Member

    Location:
    Phoenix, Arizona
    Hey, Dave...

    Did you read the article on the Gold CD Realm with the ex-MFSL guy Gregg Schnitzer?

    He talks about Columbia botching the half-speed mastering process by not allowing for the proper settings for the job....let me see if I can find it....oh, yeah...check it out:

    "CBS sent me a catalog and invited me to pick a baker's dozen of titles that I would like to do on vinyl. So I picked lots of neat stuff like Abraxas, Joni Mitchell, Ten Years After, Earth Wind and Fire and so on, and ordered the records for tech review. I sent the list of my choices back and they sent me records but I never heard from them again. Several months later I was cruising a record store and I see this glitzy rack with the 13 titles I had picked. It said, "CBS Master Sound - Audiophile Pressing - Half Speed Mastered." Boy, was I pissed. I bought one of each and went back to the lab. After I cooled down I called Gary to see if he could do some listening with me. "

    "Thirty seconds after dropping the needle on the first disc we stopped and looked at each other in horror. Then we tried another of the CBS discs. We stopped that one, looked at each other, and laughed till we had tears in our eyes and cramps in our sides. CBS tried to do an end run on us by having us do the A&R work. The problem was that they, apparently, cut the discs at half speed but didn't adjust their EQ or Dolby systems down an octave. They just cut it at half speed with their real time mastering notes for processing. Man, it sounded like watermelon seeds shooting out the speakers. Those poor guys looked real bad after that and we looked real good. They never did get it right and eventually stopped trying."



    My point is, then, if the same screwed-up process was used for the entire library how can one or two titles sound so great (the afore mentioned 52nd Street and, say, PF's Wish You Were Here)) and the rest be lousy?

    What say oh man of the North?
     
  17. Carl Hoffmann

    Carl Hoffmann Senior Member Thread Starter

    Location:
    Pennsylvainiaville
    Yeah, it was a nice price. I don't think I get any of the silly over blown packaging however. I think I ended up chucking that crap on my gold Kind of Blue anyway. Now if I can only ditch this "Junior Member" status I'll really be sitting pretty! :p
     
  18. Dave

    Dave Esoteric Audio Research Specialist™

    Location:
    B.C.
    Ben,
    Can you say "They used 2 different masters on the cds and vinyls"? I already knew that the vinyls were screwed ( I read that same article 9 months ago). Thank god there were 2 different masters done.

    BTW There are quite a few more than just those 2 that are really well done.
     
  19. Ronflugelguy

    Ronflugelguy Resident Trumpet Geek

    Location:
    Modesto,Ca
    Dave, clue us in on a few more....please?
     
  20. Dave

    Dave Esoteric Audio Research Specialist™

    Location:
    B.C.
    Ron, I'll give ya a hint. Go to search type in Mastersound, then look for the thread called Mastersound: The good, the bad & the ugly and they're all listed there already.;)
     
  21. Ben

    Ben New Member

    Location:
    Phoenix, Arizona

    So...you're saying that there was one 1/2 speed master cut for the vinyl and then at a later date the same process was used to cut a new master to make the CD from....hmmmmm.

    Makes sense if there is a sonic improvement in the CD from the LP.

    My 1/2 speed master WYWH vinyl sounds beautiful....every bit as good as the CD.

    Was there a vinyl 1/2 HSM of "52nd Street?" I've never seen one...


    Arizona is hot,

    Ben
     
  22. Ronflugelguy

    Ronflugelguy Resident Trumpet Geek

    Location:
    Modesto,Ca
    Yes Ben , there was a 1/2 speed of "52nd St." and the "Stranger". Its been way too long and too many equipment changes to comment on sound quality, but I think 52nd was good, but that was the late 70's.:confused:
     
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