Black Sabbath CD's - 86 Castles vs. 2016 Remasters

I'm wondering how the 86 Castle cds compare to the recent 2016 remasters? I'm specifically referring to 1970 s/t to 1978's NSD. Are the 2016's the preferred version for all, or are there some discs where the 86 Castles are better? E.g. MOR, SBS...

 

I've never heard the 86 Castle CDs to compare but the 2016 remasters are solid. Much better than the original Warner Bros. You can get them in Canada online for $10 at Walmart.

 

This might help...

Roland's favorite CD versions of Black Sabbath albums »

Roland's favorite CD versions of Black Sabbath albums (part2) »

 

I haven't been able to figure this out... But are the 2016 digipaks the same masters as 2012, or are they new? If new, how do they stack up to the 2012's? Thanks.

 

The 2016’s use the 2012 mastering.

 

But the 2012 masterings are different from Black Box?

 

Totally different... I’d suggest staying away from the Black Box - waaay too much compression!! Stick with the 2009’s and 2016’s with a few 86 Castles mixed in and you’ll be fine

 

The 2016 reissues are my favorite.

 

I like a combination of different masterings... collecting Sabbath isn’t an exact science! lol Case in point...the original WB Of Sabotage will give the others a run for their money...

 

Thank you!

 

You’re very welcome... glad I could help!

 

IMO the 2012 remasters (used on almost a all digital releases since then) are far too bright-sounding. Yep, lotta detail, but they really were never supposed to sound that way. I really don't know what release I prefer for TE and NSD; for most of the first 6 albums, I prefer either the 2009 Sanctuary or the 1986 Castle (if we are talking Redbook CDs here - my favourite digital versions of s/t, MOR, Vol4 and SBS are the SACDs). Paranoid is a special case though - here the 2012 remaster seems to use the best source tape, but again it is too bright, so you will need your equalizer.

Anyway, almost everything about this topic has already been said in Part 2 of Roland's threads, see the links posted by zen above. You'll just need a little patience to scroll through all the pages. ;-)

 

The 2012 masterings are a little bright, you're right (TE and NSD especially). I like the first 6 quite a bit though as an alternative to my '86 Castles....guess it depends on my mood.

The best versions of TE and NSD are actually the Black Box versions IMHO. I have several versions of each album (including the very good, much darker 1987 Vertigos and Warners) and the Black Box are by far the fullest, richest, and most balanced sounding. They're compressed and mastered loud, but for some reason I can crank the hell out of them and they don't easily distort like most compressed recordings. I'm sure dynamics are compromised but I think the trade-off for fuller sound (more/better bass) is worth it in those cases.

 

You should try the original US WB for TE, and the WG Spectrum for NSD. The US WB for NSD isn't a bad 2nd choice. I think those 3 discs are eminently more crankible than the Black Box versions.

 

I concur, Sabbath is a mixed bag on CD. I have heard the Castles, WB’s, Black Box remasters and the current 2016 discs. I agree that the 80’s WB disc of Sabotage is outstanding, I think it’s the best digital version. For the s/t, Paranoid, and MoR I’d go for the 2016 releases which I feel are the absolute best, and regarding Paranoid I own the super deluxe box set which I can’t recommend highly enough, it’s currently $17 on Amazon which is an absolute steal, I paid $30 for it when it first came out and even that I felt was a bargain considering what you get in the package plus the cost of what those super deluxe sets usually go for. For Vol. 4 however I feel the ‘86 Castle is definitive, the 2016 has nasty NR applied to it, and all the other CD’s of this album just sound wonky, the Castle sounds just right. For Sabbath Bloody Sabbath I prefer the 2004 remaster which was included in the Black Box set over the other CD’s, I’m pretty sure you can get that disc standalone. As for Technical Ecstacy and Never Say Die I’d say get the 2016’s.

 

Yeah, I like the US WB for TE but it's VERY quiet. It's got a great sound, is dynamic enough, but I can never get it loud enough. It's much quieter even than my 1987 German Vertigo, which is another contender for best TE mastering.

For NSD I have a 1987 "Made In The Netherlands" Vertigo (830 789-2). I'm not sure if that's the same mastering as the WG Spectrum but it's not as bright as any other version I've heard, which is great since it's a very bright recording to begin with. The US WB is good too, but can sound shrill in spots.

Unlike the first 6 Sabbath albums I wasn't satisfied at all with the 2009 Sanctuary Deluxe Editions or 2012 Remasters for TE and NSD. I guess that's why I've substituted the Black Box versions as their modern remastered alternatives. They certainly aren't perfect, way too loud for sure, but I do like the bass they bring to the table.

EDIT: Never mind what I said about liking the Black Box version of NSD lol. I just listened and it sounds like fried a**holes. The 1987 Vertigo totally kicks it's butt. Don't know why I thought I remembered liking the BB version. I do still like the Black Box TE though.

 

^^^ The WG Spectrum is unique, and isn't even as bright as the Vertigo (but the Vertigo has a boosted low end too, so it's kind of "balanced", but it's still tweaked too much for me). But I don't think the Spectrum is too dark at all. That Spectrum CD has beaten a few lps I've heard for NSD. It's not super fantastic, but it's very very good. Cool, I was a little fearful you had heard the BB versions for TE and NSD and stopped, and hadn't tried any others!

 

Thanks for the tips, I appreciate it. I've been a lurker here for years and your posts have helped many times. I'll have to definitely keep an eye out for that Spectrum CD!

 

Just my 2 cents ........ the mythology surrounding the '86 Castle CLACD discs outweighs their performance once you hear them. From memory when I owned them, I reckon the pick of the bunch of the first 6 albums were Paranoid & SBS. MOR was muddy and lifeless and Sabotage had tape issues. For me, since the 2009 and subsequent reissues, we have better, cheaper and easier to find options available. It doesn't have to be complicated. Even a couple of the old original US Warner discs are decent such as Sabotage, and the Warner SBS isn't a bad option either.

 

Proverbial Post
[+ #'s ninnies run away!]:

"Black Sabbath" Dynamic Range Database ratings ~
Album list - Dynamic Range Database

The "Black Box" containing 3 of the worse releases [pg. 4] rated.

Off:
2013's "13" being, perhaps, the most compressed official "Black Sabbath" release; ever!

 

Your point being?

 

These are my current preferred versions - with links to each of the releases:

• S/T - Castle
• Paranoid - Can´t decide between the Castle or 33PD-353
• Master of Reality - Can´t decide between Castle and 2009. Although the index error on Embryo / Children of the Grave on the Castle disc annoys me
• Vol. 4 - Castle
• Sabbath Bloody Sabbath - Castle. Although it annoys me a bit that Sabbra Cadabra starts with a really low volume
• Sabotage - Can´t decide between the USA WB and the 2009
• Technical - USA WB
• Never Say Die - Spectrum

That being said... in my car I have to play whatever version is currently available on Spotify (probably the 2016 remasters), and I must say that I like the sound of those versions. If those are the 2016, I could live with just those!

 

I think you’ll be hard pressed to find a better mastering on CD for NSD than the 2016.

 

I have no idea what point he/she is trying to make.

 

I actually just listened to Vol 4 from the Black Box and I really dug it. It sounded great to me, and I’m not sure you’ll hear another version that clear. Like a murky film was erased on this mastering.

Say what you will about the black box but Vol 4 and Sabbath Bloody Sabbath sounds great.