Black Sabbath CD's - 86 Castles vs. 2016 Remasters

Discussion in 'Music Corner' started by Music_dude, Aug 22, 2017.

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  1. Queezma

    Queezma Forum Resident

    YESSS! The Live At Last portion of Past Lives does sound like a really good Bootleg. Does Past Lives improve on Live At Last or is it pretty much the same. I know Live At Last was a European release back in the day (I always remember seeing it back in the day as an import) but was it an authorized release? I believe it was released on NEMS as opposed to Vertigo?
     
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  2. Music_dude

    Music_dude Forum Resident Thread Starter

    Location:
    Canada
    And of course, it wasn’t released until 1980, but from what I can recall, it wasn’t what you’d call an official or sanctioned release from the bands perspective anyway. I believe it had more to do with the sometimes shady dealings of their management. I used to know the story, but I forgot exactly how it went. I don’t think it was Meehan, because Sabbath fired him and Wilf Pine in the mid 70’s.., I’m almost thinking it was something to do with Don Arden but I can’t remember.
     
    Last edited: Dec 16, 2018
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  3. Music_dude

    Music_dude Forum Resident Thread Starter

    Location:
    Canada
    Unfortunately, Past Lives is brick walled to the nines, and does the entire release a great disservice. There’s also some stuff from 1970 and 1975 on there as well.
     
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  4. Queezma

    Queezma Forum Resident

    I think you are correct about Don Arden having something to do with that debacle. Sounds very familiar. Maybe now I need to hunt down an original copy of Live At Last on CD. I had an original pressing on lp in my hands yesterday at a used store in a Toronto but it wasn’t in great condition and didn’t want to spend 50 bucks on a live album that I knew sounded sub par to begin with. The only reason I bought Past Lives was because I am a completist and figured I may as well by ALL the 2016 remasters lol (including the coloured vinyl reissues).
     
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  5. rnranimal

    rnranimal Senior Member

    Location:
    Ohio
    I personally like the '96 CD best. I think I'm probably in the minority, though.
     
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  6. Queezma

    Queezma Forum Resident

    Ahhhhh. Didn’t even realize that Live At Last was part of the 96 Castle remasters.
     
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  7. Music_dude

    Music_dude Forum Resident Thread Starter

    Location:
    Canada
    Neither did I.
     
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  8. rnranimal

    rnranimal Senior Member

    Location:
    Ohio
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  9. Queezma

    Queezma Forum Resident

    I am assuming you mean this specific mastering/pressing of Live At Last?
     
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  10. rnranimal

    rnranimal Senior Member

    Location:
    Ohio
    Yeah, that pressing. I'm wondering if it's a unique mastering.
     
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  11. Queezma

    Queezma Forum Resident

    I honestly have no idea....but is this the 96 Castle that you have? Or do you have the UK pressing
     
  12. rnranimal

    rnranimal Senior Member

    Location:
    Ohio
    I have the UK '96. The '04 is also the same. But I'm not sure what this '96 Japan CD has. It's not the '96 mastering because that one is missing the announcer yelling "Black Sabbath" at the very beginning and the time on the Japan CD is the slightly longer time for the first track which would include the intro.
     
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  13. Vinyl Fan 1973

    Vinyl Fan 1973 "They're like soup, they're like....nothing bad"

    Agree 100%. All this Sabbath talk has inspired me to listen to Sabbath all weekend, even bringing it with me in the car all weekend! I really delved into my collection and spent time listening to many albums I have not played in awhile.

    As for the 96 Castles, I had SBS, Sabotage, Born Again and Seventh Star. I remember loving SBS and Sabotage but foolishly sold them by accident when selling a large part of my collection of duplicates. I still have BA and SS and although I haven’t spent time comparing them to the deluxe editions, I think they sound fine. I’ll actually compare them this week.
     
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  14. Queezma

    Queezma Forum Resident

    All the different Sabbath threads on this forum have also made me listen to many titles front to back that I haven’t listened to in years (Paranoid, Mob Rules). I love listening for the details people talk about on here that I never picked up on before. It’s like a whole new listening experience. As far as the 96 Castles, I only went as far as Mob Rules.... and for the 2016’s I bought all of them (S/T-Techincal Ecstasy + Past Lives). Like I said earlier, I intend on spending the holidays comparing the 96’s to the 2016’s. In full disclosure.....I have never listened to anything past Live Evil (Seventh Star onward). Obviously I jumped back on the train for Dehuminizer, The Devil You Know and 13..... but I rarely go back to those titles. I also found it fun over the past month searching out the 2009 (I think 2009?) rhino vinyl reissues of Vol 4, Sabbath Bloody Sabbath, and Sabotage... based on the Sabbath vinyl reissues thread. I already own first pressings on vinyl of everything up to Live Evil as well as the coloured vinyl from 2016 but these threads inspired me to look for those 3 titles from the previous vinyl reissues campaign.
     
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  15. No need to say sorry, we haven't exactly been on-topic all the time anyway. ;) I don't think there is any general consensus regarding the 1996 Castle vs. the 2016 WB/Rhino CDs. Quite possibly, many people who are mentioning the 2016 CDs have probably not heard the 1996 CDs and vice versa. Personally, I am not a big fan of either two of the sets. The 2016 Paranoid and Wicked World on the 2016 as well as the 1996 Live at Last are good (though the 2016 all need EQ to tame the brightness), but that's about it for me. As a tendency, the Japan SACDs (well at least, 4 of the 6), the 2009 Sanctuary CDs and the 1986 Castle CDs are IMO all better overall than the two series you are asking about. But they really all have their ups and downs. If you want the best available version of each album, you will have to check out each individually, rather than looking for the one set of remasters that solves your problems all at once. Roland's thread is the best possible start:
    Roland's favorite CD versions of Black Sabbath albums (part2)

    I am sure there is at least one thread that discusses the 1996 Castle remasters. I remember they were criticised a lot, but not sure about the details - probably because of compression, maybe some were even denoised? Regarding the 2016, you will find more information in some of the posts above. Most obvious flaw is their brightness. If you like brightness, the 2016 are exactly what you need.

    Basically, if you are happy with either the 1996 Castle or the 2016 WB/Rhino CDs, that's all that counts. From an audiophile perspective, most available releases of Sabbath albums are very disappointing, and you'll have to be prepared for some troubles if you are determined to find the least disappointing version of each. From a Sabbath fan's perspective, the music is so good that even the worst mastering cannot truly ruin it. ;)

    Past Lives disc 1 is probably the worst-sounding copy of Live at Last that we have. To be sure, LaL is not exactly an audiophile recording in the first place (though I do like its sound, so live and raw); however, the added compression on PL does make it worse. As rnranimal has mentioned, the 1996 Castle of LaL sounds pretty good; I haven't done any extensive comparisons to other versions, so I don't know yet which one I like best. I love Live at Last, and to me all the copies I have listened to sound just fine.

    IIRC, Live at Last was part of the (rather bad) deal the band had to make with Meehan, their former manager, so it was legal, but not authorised of the band (or something along those lines).

    As for Past Lives vs. Live at Last, see my notes above and below:

     
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  16. yesstiles

    yesstiles Senior Member

    The 2016 discs for the Classic 6 Ozzy albums are definitely better than those 1996 remasters.
     
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  17. Good question. I just did a quick check. With my headphones, the TE and NSD 2009 do sound quite similar to the 1996, but louder. So I checked dynamic range values, and yes, the DR values are significantly lower for the 2009 than for the 1996 CDs. Maybe they used the 1996, added compression and that was it? Would you like me to post samples?


    The 1996 Japan TECW-25319 Teichiku of Live at Last sounds very different from the 1996 UK ESM CD 331 Castle. Yes, the Japan does include the "Welcome... Black Sabbath!" introduction (sounds to me like Ozzy himself says it, btw - or maybe that's just because I always ASSUMED it was him?) which is indeed missing from the Castle. The 1996 Japan TECW-25319 Teichiku has exactly the same track timings as the 1989_Japan 23PD-124 Vertigo, but sounds brighter and a little louder to me. So I guess the 1996 Japan is a copy of the 1989 with some added sound-processing. Again, let me know if you need samples or anything.


    EDIT: ...and the 1989 Japan 23PD-124 Vertigo contains a very similar or maybe identical mastering as the 1987 or 1989 (not sure which release date is correct) West Germany 832 704-2 Vertigo, and almost identical track-splitting.
     
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  18. sathvyre

    sathvyre formerly known as ABBAmaniac

    Location:
    Europe
    The yound good I think...but the last track on one of the albums (can't remember which one) has some serious tape issues in the left channel during the final minute...that REALLY sucks...
     
  19. sathvyre

    sathvyre formerly known as ABBAmaniac

    Location:
    Europe
    Both are not really good....the 2009 remasters for the CDs which include the REAL 2009 remasters are the best digital versions I think.
     
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  20. Queezma

    Queezma Forum Resident

    Thanks so much for your analysis!!! I 100% agree with you about Past Lives (Disc 1-Live At Last). What it lacks in audio quality is made up for with the sheer raw energy of the show. Like the OP mentioned it is like you are thrown in to the actual audience and are experiencing the show first hand. I haven’t listened to the second disc but will spend some time with it today. I also agree with you regarding different pressings of titles in general to acquire the best sounding version.....when remasters (Of any artist) first became available I ALWAYS dumped my original pressings in favour of whatever newest Remaster was out. The thought being newer MUST be better. Even when I knew something was amiss with the remasters I didn’t give it much thought and just lived with it (although with Sabbath I never owned original pressings to begin with, so when I started acquiring Sabbath on CD it was early 2000’s and I purchased the 96 Castles as those were the versions the music store I worked at carried). Since being part of this forum it has educated me and actually inspired me to search out and re-acquire first pressings I already owned but at some point got rid of (specifically Motley, Maiden and Priest). So I appreciate everyone’s opinions in helping to steer me in the right direction. It has also made collecting fun again.
     
  21. Queezma

    Queezma Forum Resident

    These being the UK Sanctuary ‘09 remasters?
     
  22. sathvyre

    sathvyre formerly known as ABBAmaniac

    Location:
    Europe
    Yes, but minus PARANOID, TECHNICAL ECSTASY and NEVER SAY DIE (where wrong masters were used -> not Andy Pearce's work !!!).
     
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  23. Queezma

    Queezma Forum Resident

    There is actually a store where I am that still carries the 09’s so I might check those out. As far as the three titles that Pearce didn’t work on, which versions are your go to’s?
     
  24. sathvyre

    sathvyre formerly known as ABBAmaniac

    Location:
    Europe
    The three not used from the Pearce remasters are not digitally available in perfect form (for my ears)...it will always be a compromise...
     
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  25. Music_dude

    Music_dude Forum Resident Thread Starter

    Location:
    Canada
    For TE and NSD, the original WB discs are very good... the 2016’s which Pearce did work on are also nice. As for Paranoid, the 2016 is good if you can handle the brightness... either an EQ adjustment is in order, or perhaps give the 86’ Castle a shot...
     
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