Think you meant accurate? Anyway I was kidding around, and definitely hope Tim doesn't take offense. He's a great contributor with a ton of knowledge, and I surely ain't trying to derail any of his points. "Feels good to me" is another doozy......LOL
I completely agree but let’s be honest about groupies. It wasn’t Ozzy who reduced them to their sexual utilization value with some stupid comment to his roadies. That was the sex culture phenomenon of which they were part. But I absolutely see your point and fully concur. That comment he made was pathetic. The reason I remember that Rolling Stone article from ‘71 is I have personally never really seen another band talk so negatively about groupies. They quite literally seemed pretty disgusted by the whole scene. I’ve never delved too much into the personal lives of these guys and tbh the whole sex and drug culture of that time just doesn’t hold any interest for me. With Sabbath, however, it does seem like (at least when they first came to America) they rejected some of that culture. Now that it’s commonplace to sort of idolize the “rock star” lifestyle (an idea to which I definitely do not subscribe) I think Ozzy just seems to kind of go along with the whole “it was crazy” narrative. He may not even remember how he felt before more and more fame and more and more drugs took their toll.
To be fair, the "two bags" comment is no worse than the kind of joke you'd hear every time you turned on your television set on in the seventies.
Idk. You're guess is as good as mine. Life at 3am or whatever. Feeling like a 2 bagger (sorry). A lot of humour is debasing humans in general, in comedy stand up and such, as long as it's not taken too far. But to refer to the specific people you spend time with that way? It's to say your wasting your time with them. Very sad. I just don't know what to make of comments like that. My hubby doesn't talk like that except to describe some of his friends and co-workers. We have a laugh and don't really take it too seriously. But, we don't hang with those people much, either. Also, my husband didn't grow up like that. Sab's first four probably did, or any other group of people growing up in such a climate. So I think we have to consider that. But truly febasing humans in any way is sad, and objectifies them. Shows a certain lack of intelligence and superiority complex.
This is one of the reasons why I don't usually delve too far into the personal lives of the artists I like. They almost never come off looking good. Sex, drugs and RnR is usually a terrible recipe for integrity. Tony and Ozzy both have questionable (at best) issues in their past towards women and animals. Both being a big issue for me. Some of these things are confirmed, some are claims by others. Which brings me to another reason I don't delve much into the personal lives. You never know what to believe if it's not confirmed. I prefer not to have their personal issues intrude on my enjoyment of the music and it eventually would if I knew and thought about it too much. I have higher opinions of Geezer and Bill than I do Tony and Ozzy but some of that could come from knowing less about them as they don't usually make news outside of band issues. I did like to read about Geezer contributing reward $$ to catch a cat killer.
I fully agree it was, and still is at many places, a large cultural and certainly not an individual phenomenon. At the same time, culture is permanently reproduced or transformed by human beings which can be (and IMO should be) held accountable for their actions. Even under the worst socio-cultural circumstances, there are almost always at least a few people who do well. But yes, we should be careful not to focus too much on certain people when the problem is actually a larger, societal one. Based on what I read in "How Black was our Sabbath", I am really not sure if they were that skeptical regarding the groupie scene - in the book, it doesn't sound like that at all. And of course, feeling disgusted by groupies is very different from respecting them as fully valuable human beings. Thanks for your thoughtful comment. Yeah, Ozzy shooting arbitrarily on his chickens with a shotgun when they hadn't produced the number of eggs he expected was another passage in the book I didn't particularly enjoy. Like you, I tend to like Geezer and Bill more than Ozzy and Tony, but I am always afraid that's just due to a lack of information on my part - especially since the 4 of them spent so much time together. I am sure it is wise not too delve too deeply into these matters. Ah, so the 2-bag comment freaked you out too? Sorry, I seriously considered not posting it because I found it awful myself. But then I decided to post it nevertheless, because I am a strong believer in writing a band's (and pretty much everything's) history with honesty, rather than romanticizing it. However, sometimes it isn't funny at all! Yeah, I agree with you - the circumstances in which we have grown up make a huge difference. I am not used to that kind of stuff either in my closer surroundings, but I know that, for example, many (not all) guys at my school had similar attitudes as the one Ozzy showed at that point. Anyway, maybe you can lead us to lighter topics with a new question? ;-) Sorry again.
QUOTE="blacksabbathrainbow, post: 22120144, member: 78738"]Anyway, maybe you can lead us to lighter topics with a new question? ;-)[/QUOTE] Lighter matters around the corner in the morn. Well, my morn anyway. Unless I'm up at 2 again and that's where I may a little less than light
I read the book when it came out but one of these days I might give it a re-read. I suspect with more and more fame and money a lot of things changed. But there can be no question that in ‘71 in RS, they were very critical of groupies. It’s in print. And it was not pretty. As an aside, Ozzy can definitely be self-deprecating. All of them are like that and it’s a quality I happen to admire. Plenty of qualities about him I don’t happen to admire, but as a little balance I really do appreciate that quality. In fact I think it helped make him one of the least pretentious stage performers of his generation.
Totally agree with this. I'm all for discussing the music and band dynamics but their personal lives don't matter that much to me. If others wish to talk about it that's fine of course.
My theory is Don Arden started controlling Sabbath after he and his crew pushed out Jim Simpson right before the release of the Paranoid album. The Sabs had met with Arden, and they told him No, but they were afraid of the repercussions. 2 weeks later, the same driver, Wilf Pine, who had taken them to the original meeting, called them and told them he had someone he wanted them to meet. That was Patrick Meehan Jr. (To note, Wilf Pine ended up becoming a "made man" in an NYC crime family. A big time rarity) I find it very hard to believe that Don Arden would allow the 2 Meehans and Wilf Pine, all 3 men worked for him, to set up WWA and manage Sabbath without his ok and without him getting a taste of that. Meehan Sr was allegedly on hand to dangle Robert Stigwood out a window when the Small Faces Steve Marriott was making noise about leaving Arden's management. The impression I got was that Meehan Jr was just a handler/facilitator, signing the contracts, taking requests, and running drugs to the band. He was certainly wasnt a record producer, nor much of an agent, yet somehow he got Sabbath into the bigger venues they craved, that Simpson couldnt. Arden was infamous for not putting his name on anything, giving him that legal separation. His daughter, Sharon Osbourne, has talked about signing for things she had no idea about when she was working for him. Fwiw, Simpson was in over his head. He basically was a club owner, and had signed over all of Sabbath's recording and publishing rights for just about nothing. And he had no connections to get them better venues, bigger pay, as the debut album blew up. It was interesting that when the band suspected they were being ripped off, WWA instantly folded shop, and there was Arden, with the recently purchased, dormant NEMS label, to keep the money rolling in. Also found it interesting that nobody slapped an injunction on Meehan Jr when he released the Live At Last album, I believe in 1980.
Arden was definitely involved starting around Paranoid but from what I've read, Meehan Sr. was the main guy, with Arden somewhat behind the scenes as the band were reluctant to go with him. Meehan Jr. was closer in age to them and went on the road and so forth. As I understand it, the Nems deal was a part of the settlement with Meehan. They later tried to stop Live At Last but couldn't as he had rights to release the first six albums, some compilations and one live record. One thing is for sure, Arden and the Meehans definitely did not crave the spotlight like they craved money. It's hard to even track how all of this was put together. Trying to follow the money is near impossible. Dorchester Holding? Wtf is that? I always assumed it was Meehan but Arden may have had his paws on it as well. For years and years DH was licensing out those budget releases to Creative Sounds. And the band just don't get into the details of this stuff. I know that Sharon has said what they went through is one the biggest rip-off stories in rock history. Maybe one day it will be properly told.......
Tim, here is a good bit of the story from Iommi's biography. Chapter 17, to be specific. Pretty clear Tony is talking about Meehan Jr. Jr was working as a driver/gofer for the crew, while the older Meehan was more of a minder/muscle, who had taken care of a troubled Gene Vincent as he toured around the UK in the early 60s under Arden's management. Now under new management - Iron Man: My Journey Through Heaven & Hell with Black Sabbath - Tony Iommi, T.J. Lammers NEMS name/logo rights were purchased by Don Arden, maybe a year before WWA folded up. Thing that was unusual was Arden formed his own label around that time, Jet Records, who of course Oz signed his first solo deal with. Next post, I'm going to try to dig up a wild story a writer tells about him and Meehan Jr taking a trip up to a Sabbath gig in Newcastle 1973.
Thanks! I read Iommi’s book right when it came out but a lot of these details fade. I still think “The Writ” says it all, and it is directly to Meehan Sr. “A poison father with a poisonous son, that’s you.” Or some variation of that. Would love to hear the Newcastle ‘73 story! That sounds familiar but if I’ve read it I won’t mind reading it again.
Here's the story of Meehan Jr and the writer going to Manchester in 1972. I think Meehan Jr has been managing them for a little less than 18 months at this point. (And note, owns 3 real nice cars) He doesnt come right out and say it, maybe didnt connect the dots, but it sure does look like theres more in the briefcase than WWA management papers....the whole thing looks weird in a drug running sort of way. Expensive cars parked in airport parking garages, rental cars left at ferry terminals and forgotten. Just Backdated: BLACK SABBATH - Transport Issues
I think you and I know Tim doesn't get derailed. Besides, you are always very polite. I've seen you both have quite long respectful disagreements.
I wasn't offended at all. It fit well with how I was feeling when answering your question about what was happening. It just hit the mark. Of course I don't think I've ever seriously thought of myself this way. No reason to be sorry. P
20 pages done and 21 on its way. I'm still catching up on reading. So much info, links and references, books and movies. I'm so happy. I hope we keep going and that my next question is enjoyable. See you all tmro
Wonder if the Sabs ever considered Peter Grant? IIRC he walked away from Arden clean and became a great artist first manager. Seems when the band split with Meehan was around the time Swan Song was created and signing bands. Likely Grant and Arden stayed out of each others way, I'm guessing. Self deprecating Ozzy.......... https://www.amazon.com/Osbourne-Poster-13x19-Sabbath-Toilet/dp/B01LILU9SC
Great observation on Swan Song, and an interesting question. Maybe Grant steered clear of Sabbath, knowing what was going on with management, because it would seem smart if he would've made a play for them when the opportunity came up. Enough for everybody, no use being a pig and starting a fight, bad for business. I mentioned the Small Faces Steve Marriott earlier. His story should be noted. He was desperate to get away from Arden. Sought out Robert Stigwood's advice, which lead to Arden's threat to throw him out a window if he caught him messing with his act. Anyhow, Marriott got out of Small Faces, started Humble Pie, looked for new management in America, and came up with Dee Anthony. And the song remained the same.... Dee Anthony - Wikipedia Interesting to note that Marriott and his wife were called to meet at the Ravenite Social Club in the Bronx, regarding the bands money, and one of the guys in the room was John Gotti. The same John Gotti who had been connected with Wilf Pine via a picture from Iommi's recollections. Quite a coincidence, no?
Grant and Swan Song wanted to get Sabbath to sign with them in ‘75 after they fired Meehan. Sabbath declined.
