Black Sabbath - Sabotage - 5 LPs!

Discussion in 'Music Corner' started by Cranny, Apr 9, 2021.

  1. As mentioned above, the Creative Sounds CDs have the beginning of The Writ cut, so the loud part you're referring to that starts at 0:39 on the WB already starts at 0:15 on the CS CDs.
    OK. I didn't want to turn the volume up that loud because I was afraid to harm my ears, so I took a different approach than before: I used FLAC rips and edited out the loud part, so now I can turn the volume up without risk. At 0:37, I can (faintly) hear something in the background, but I frankly cannot tell if that's Ozzy or something else. Could be. My ears are simply not good enough anymore I guess. Anyway, I checked other releases, and I can hear the exact same thing on the 1986 Castle CD, 2009 Sanctuary CD and on the 2014 HDtracks as well. I cannot make it out on the UK or US LP-rips I have, but that might be due to it being drowned out by the vinyl noise - there's not a huge amount of noise but at that volume it well audible, and the Ozzy-or-whatever-it-is stuff is pretty quiet even on the CDs. Given that it is on both the 2009 and 2012 remasters, I bet it is on the master tape, intentionally or unintentionally.

    I would never have noticed it had it not been pointed out, and unlike any of the drop-outs we've discussed here recently, this thing doesn't bother me at all.
    Gus Tomato likes this.
  2. hutchguv

    hutchguv Rock/Metal/Prog/Power Pop fan

    The dropout flaw on the creative USA disc is not on the US Warner

    I also listened to that weird echo thing at the beginning of The Writ

    I have a UK first press LP rip that doesn't have the echo before the loud part kicks in after the laughs and bass intro, but the US LP rip I have has it very very faintly

    I tried the US Warner, Japan TECP 23939 and Vertigio 832706-2 they all have it... TECP was most noticeable

    Sometimes when analog tape is stored I've read that bleed through can happen, on a quiet part you may hear a loud part as it bleeds through the tape reel

    Tape being magnetic I'm guessing there's a physics logic here, but how it actually does it I don't think I can convey with words... Those more eloquent than I probably can

    I'm not one hundred percent on this but perhaps that's what has happened here

    The original UK LP didn't have it, the US LP might have been mastered from a tape of the master that when copied and stored gained the echo and over time the tape gained more echo through storage

    This is a complete guess by the way and my wording on things is not always the best

    I did this on my speakers .... it may well have been better to test it on my headphones... but I have my headphone set up upstairs in the bedroom and my lady partner is sleeping so I don't really want to wake her up because of my need to compare Sabbath echos on various masterings She thinks I'm weird enough already
  3. Thank you very much. Very interesting, especially the part about the "bleed through". I seem to remember that someone mentioned this possibility (not for Sabotage, but more generally) before in some Sabbath thread on this forum.

    After reading your post, I tested more releases for this ominous pre-echo thing. It is on the 2021 remaster as well - no big surprise. I checked further needle drops, and I am now fairly sure that the pre-echo is not present on either the original UK or the original US LP pressings. This is of course consistent with your finding with respect to the UK pressing you have.

    However, here comes a little surprise. I do hear the pre-echo on needle drops of the following LP pressings:
    1975 original Japan LP Vertigo cat# "RJ-7043"
    1980ies US LP WB cat# "BS 2822" (grey logos)
    1980 WG LP Spiegelei ("fried egg") cat# "INT 145.621"

    Thus, so far we have found the pre-echo to be present on each and every release we checked (vinyl or digital) other than the original US and UK LPs. The original Japan LP is the one that puzzles me most because it is from the same year as the UK and US LPs. Given that the same pre-echo we hear on the original Japan LP and the 1991 Japan TECP CD can be heard on releases from later releases from the US, UK and Germany as well, we can rule out the possibilities that the pre-echo originally emerged on just one (Japanese) copy tape. Rather, it looks very much like the pre-echo must be on the original master tape - however, it cannot have been there from the very beginning. Basically, when the US and UK LP were cut, there was no pre-echo, but when, probably shortly afterwards (does anyone know the exact release date or of the first Japanese pressing, at least the month?), tape copies were made for Japan and other countries, the pre-echo was already there - not just on the copy tapes but likely on the original master tape as well, given that the pre-echo can be heard on so many different releases from different parts of the world, including those releases that would likely seem to be sourced from the original master tape.

    Of course, this theory can easily be falsified by finding any post-1975 release that does not have the pre-echo.

    Again, the good news is that the pre-echo is so quiet I would never ever have noticed it if you, @Synthfreek, hadn't pointed it out. Kudos for noticing it. I have no idea how you did it. I only hear it when I crank the volume up to an extent that would be super-dangerous for my ears if I didn't stop before the louder part kicks in.
    hi_watt, Gus Tomato and hutchguv like this.
  4. hutchguv

    hutchguv Rock/Metal/Prog/Power Pop fan

    The US LP rip I have is the BS 2822 just for confirmation, I didn't state that in my post

    Sorry about that

    Whilst we're getting into such obscure details it would probably help if I had mentioned it in my post

    This pre echo thing is turning into Technical Ecstasy
    blacksabbathrainbow likes this.
  5. Thanks for clarifying. Only now I noticed I overlooked the part of your post where you stated that the US LP rip you checked does have the pre-echo. Do you happen to know which year that pressing is from? The cat# BS 2822 was apparently used for multiple pressings from 1975 through some time in the 1980ies.
    hutchguv likes this.
  6. hutchguv

    hutchguv Rock/Metal/Prog/Power Pop fan

    Sorry, I might have had more details at the time I got the rip, but now all I have is the picture I have embedded in the lossless files, that's just the label
    blacksabbathrainbow likes this.
  7. Tim1954

    Tim1954 Forum Resident

    Cincinnati, OH
    The original US LP and UK LP were mastered at Sterling in NY. Both would have been from the master.

    This thing you’re hearing could be a little section of tape with print-through or possibly pre-echo; phenomenons with plenty of discussion around here.
    hutchguv and blacksabbathrainbow like this.
  8. hutchguv

    hutchguv Rock/Metal/Prog/Power Pop fan


    Thanks, print through... Now I know the correct term :)
    blacksabbathrainbow likes this.

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