Blackmore on Satriani

Discussion in 'Music Corner' started by townsend, May 16, 2018.

Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
  1. boogieman

    boogieman Forum Resident

    John McLaughlin on Acoustic guitar can blow Satch out of the water. John was shredding on acoustic guitar in 1972. John can play over any chord progression.
     
    BDC and Doggiedogma like this.
  2. mcchocchoc

    mcchocchoc Forum Resident

    Location:
    Oregon
    welp, this thread seems to have run it's course . . .

    [​IMG]
     
    mark winstanley likes this.
  3. mark winstanley

    mark winstanley Certified dinosaur, who likes physical product

    yep. just a p!$$!ng contest
     
    mcchocchoc likes this.
  4. Crawlin From The Wreckage

    Crawlin From The Wreckage Custom Titled

    Location:
    Canada
    Dear Sir,

    I will log off when and if I wish to. The time and/or place will never be a concern of yours.
    Deal with it.

    Sincerely.
    C.F.W.
     
  5. clarkydaz

    clarkydaz Forum Resident

    Location:
    uk
    lets hope Jimmy Page never sees this
     
    mcchocchoc likes this.
  6. Stephen J

    Stephen J Forum Resident

    Location:
    Austin, TX
    Wow, a real raw nerve exposed here .... FWIW, I think you are the one claiming higher reasoning here. I've never indicated that I think it is "true" in a factual sense that the Vai and Satriani solo records are sterile and dry, it's my opinion that they are. I don't dispute your right to feel otherwise.

    I DO dispute your claim that there is as much 'soul' on Passion and Warfare as on Eat Em and Smile - that's not a fact as you seem to claim, that's just your opinion. I disagree.

    Since Frank Zappa has been mentioned in this thread, I have to bow to one thing he said. He once said that Steve Vai played "stunt guitar" on a record of his. I think the concept of "stunt guitar" fits Vai, Malmsteen, and Satriani well. They are like to rock music what the Globetrotters were to basketball, tricks. You know, like Meadowlark Lemon** flipping a ball over his shoulder while blind-folded from 30 feet away and it goes in. Stunning trick, not much to do with real basketball though. Or kids in youtube videos who can throw footballs off of the sides of buildings and deflect off two or three surfaces before landing in a basket or something. A big "WOW" factor, but ultimately kind of vapid.

    Also, I do recall that in the 80s, these stunt guitarists - particularly Malmsteen -- did act like they were "better", they vocally put forward a claim that technical prowess was the measure of a guitarist, so IMO they earned the criticism. They were mistaken, but at least some of them were arrogant.

    I read one time where Vai addressed the "no soul/feel" criticism. He made the same point Geddy Lee once made, and it's a good one: Technical proficiency is a good thing, because the more you can do technically, the broader range of notes and whatnot you can use to express yourself emotionally. A punk guitarist who just knows two chords might not be able to fully express himself via the guitar because his lack of technical skill limits the sounds he can emit from it. I always thought this was an outstanding answer, and spot-on, and explains how the great jazz musicians could create music filled with feeling while being technically amazing. Technical skill can facilitate emotional and intellectual expression, it doesn't have to be the enemy of it as many punks claimed.

    It's just that in Vai's case, IMO he wasn't able to actually execute the concept. His actual music is guilty of the criticism - filled with technical stunts, but empty. It's like what Shakespeare once said "full of sound and fury, but signifying nothing".

    Vai and Satriani, to me, just don't have anything to say or express in an artistic sense, so the wailing is empty. In fairness, the music of many punk-type bands is the same way: They think by bashing away anarchically that they are conveying significant thoughts and feelings, but 99% of the time it is just empty bashing, you have to have something to say.

    Just my opinion ... if you derive pleasure and meaning from Vai's work, i respect that.



    ** Though IMO, Lemon and the classic Trotters were loads of fun and extremely entertaining.
     
    Last edited: May 20, 2018
    moodyxadi, patrickd and herky10 like this.
  7. Who'sTommy

    Who'sTommy Forum Resident

    Location:
    The Netherlands
    I don't like the "technical guitarists" at all, but I do have a soft spot for Joe Satriani. He clearly enjoys being on stage, smiling all the time. I went to see him a couple of times. I saw Vai when touring with G3 (w/Joe in 2012). IMO, Vai is like "watch out guys, here I come!", where Joe is like "hey guys, wanna have a good time?"
     
  8. mark winstanley

    mark winstanley Certified dinosaur, who likes physical product

    that's a very long winded way of saying you just don't like it, because essentially it's just subjective opinion and your statements about soul, feeling etc are based on nothing but personal opinion, yet you try ever so hard to cement them as fact... sorry but you fail miserably, because it is just your opinion and one devoid of fact
     
    Stormrider77 and showtaper like this.
  9. Frosst

    Frosst Vinyl-obsessive kiddo

    Location:
    Sweden
    1986*
     
  10. jblock

    jblock Senior Member

    Location:
    Connecticut
    While I may not particularly listen to the music that some of these guys put out (Satch, Vai, etc), it’s hard to get negative about them because they seem to be nice people. If you meet them or even listen to their interviews they come across as genuine and appreciative of their audience and their careers. Tommy Emmanuel is another. Great player but doesn’t really do anything for me. Yet he comes across as a great person in interviews. I find his whole Certified Guitar Player-moniker-bestowed-upon-me-by-Chet Atkins schtick a bit annoying, but hey I don’t begrudge any musician marketing themselves to make a living. It’s tough to be a full-time working musician out there.
     
    Greenalishi and mark winstanley like this.
  11. townsend

    townsend Senior Member Thread Starter

    Location:
    Ridgway, CO
    I started this thread, and I do think it has been an entertaining read. I was thinking about this note choice thing, and I just finished viewing a youtube video by George Lynch. For several decades, I didn't even know who Lynch was. Oh, from pictures in the 80s, I would have figured he was one of those nameless guitar shredders in the hair bands, but really, I didn't paying any attention to Dokken. And who would want to listen to a band named Lynch mob? For most of my life, I avoided being lynched . . .

    Then I started to hang around The Gear Page, and other guitarists put me on to Lynch. And gradually it dawned on me, this guy is different . . . way different. And while I am still not a Dokken fan, I think George is the type of guitarist that Ritchie is talking about, and it's a rare breed. Listen to how George takes that ordinary blues scale and expands it with different notes and phrasing. For my ears, this is so much more interesting that much of blues rock soloing:



    Lynch is such a virtuoso; his has incredible power and control in his fingers.

    Re Vai, Satriani, and Malmsteen.
    1) Malmsteen should not even be mentioned -- in passing -- and compared to these others players. You can call them all shredders if you wish, but Malmsteen is considered a "neoclassical" player. No, I don't know what that means, but he really is different than Vai and Satriani. At least to my ears.
    2) Satriani was the first instrumentalist shredder type guitarist to make it big. I do think Surfing with the Alien is a landmark recording and achievement. He is an incredible player. No doubt about it. Super nice guy to boot. I surely couldn't listen to ten albums of his in a row, but give the guy credit. He has got some chops.
    3) Vai is similar to Satriani in some respects -- he even took lessons from Joe early on. I do think Vai developed his own thing -- he is very creative in his song writing, and again, Passion & Warfare is a brilliant album.

    Take his song "Ballerina", from P&W. Here is an excellent cover of that song on youtube: BALLERINA - STEVE VAI (guitar cover)

    When I first heard that song many years ago, I was stunned, because it didn't even sound like guitar music. Sounded like a harpsichord on steroids. Of course, I know there are all types of effects used to produce that song and sound. But how did Vai even hear this in his head? I can't even imagine it. But I'm not him . . . that's for sure.

    What I am getting to here is that, with all respect to Stephen J, I would not classify these guitarists as "stunt" guitarists. Not a one of them.

    In my mind, the closest thing to stunt guitarist would be someone like Mattias Eklundh. If you watch this video, I think you will see what I mean: Mattias IA Eklundh - Musth

    BTW, Eklundh is a extraordinary player. Not my cup of tea, but give credit where credit is due.

    Another guy who might be called a "stunt guitarist" is Buckethead. And he again, is an incredibly talented and skilled guitarist.

    FWIW.
     
  12. mark winstanley

    mark winstanley Certified dinosaur, who likes physical product

    Nicely stated.
    I never really liked dokken, but lynch had an instrumental called mr scary on one of their albums, and that was pretty cool
     
    rodentdog likes this.
  13. mcchocchoc

    mcchocchoc Forum Resident

    Location:
    Oregon
    Nice to see Buckethead mentioned. He's a swell guy and an amazing player. I played on a couple of bills with him back during the mid-90s, my wife and I also filmed a lot of his shows over the years, many of which have been shared at dime.

    here's a cool clip from one of many shows we captured.

     
    Last edited: May 20, 2018
  14. Stephen J

    Stephen J Forum Resident

    Location:
    Austin, TX
    How can you honestly say that I have tried to 'cement my opinion as fact' when in the post you quoted I say:

    "I've never indicated that I think it is "true" in a factual sense that the Vai and Satriani solo records are sterile and dry, it's my opinion that they are. I don't dispute your right to feel otherwise."

    Seriously?

    You seem to be struggling with this, so let's see if this gets through: No, you are wrong, my previous post is not just a long way of saying "I just don't like it", it's explanation for WHY I do not like it - I find Vai's instrumental work dry, sterile, and soul-less. It leaves me cold.

    That is not an opinion - it is a fact that I find Vai (and Satriani's) instrumental work to be sterile and to leave me cold.

    But as I have said before, I also know that this is how I experience his work, and that doesn't necessarily mean you will. You could have an entirely difference experience of Vai's work and that would be just as personally valid for you as my experience is to me.

    Got it?
     
  15. Django

    Django Forum Resident

    Location:
    Dublin, Ireland
    So many people seem to think guitar (or any instrument) should only be played in this one particular way. It's such a boring way of looking at things.
     
    mark winstanley and mcchocchoc like this.
  16. mark winstanley

    mark winstanley Certified dinosaur, who likes physical product

    exactly, you just don't like it hahahhaa ...... sterile, dry, impotent, soulless, whatever ... the words "i don't like it" are what you are looking for LOL
     
  17. Stephen J

    Stephen J Forum Resident

    Location:
    Austin, TX
    I agree. My take:

    Malmsteen: Prima dona from day one, always seemed shocked that Rising Force didn't make him bigger than the Beatles. Sad, because he was intelligent and had insightful things to say from time to time.

    Vai: Not half the prick that Malmsteen was, but agree, he carries himself with some arrogance, some coldness.

    Satriani: Like you said, always came across as a warm, genuine nice guy, a generous musician.
     
    Who'sTommy likes this.
  18. Stephen J

    Stephen J Forum Resident

    Location:
    Austin, TX
    What a clown. Well, I tried. :biglaugh:
     
  19. mark winstanley

    mark winstanley Certified dinosaur, who likes physical product

    i like how he does all that muted fast stuff to get everyones attention and then plays a nice series of melodic chord phrasings afterwards there (but watch out, it may be dry, soulless and sterile HAHAHAHAHA)
     
    mcchocchoc likes this.
  20. mcchocchoc

    mcchocchoc Forum Resident

    Location:
    Oregon
    I can see how he would come across like that to some folks.
    That said, I've hung out with Steve a couple of times and he is one of the nicest persons I have ever met. Great guy.
     
    Stephen J and mark winstanley like this.
  21. mark winstanley

    mark winstanley Certified dinosaur, who likes physical product

    someone was asking why malmsteen was considered neo-classical. the reason is the structures he uses. if you listen to the structures he uses (particularly on his first solo album) he uses distinctly classical structures. although the playing on this track may have fast runs etc, listen to the use of vibrato (the technique he uses is more in line with a violin player than a guitarist) and the way it oozes a certain sensuality. a lot of his soloing is using the harmonic minor scale which in itself gives the music a classical/baroque sound ... for the record malmsteen was very influenced by blackmore.

     
    mcchocchoc likes this.
  22. mark winstanley

    mark winstanley Certified dinosaur, who likes physical product

    as for vai ... vai used to practice hours and hours a day, we are talking like ten hour practice sessions (when you are going to play with people like frank zappa, you need to have your shizen together) ... i know from experience that when you are playing that much it effects how you play, but mainly it can make it more difficult to write, due to playing everything there is to play on a guitar in the period of a week. vai got to the point where he transcended this little problem. but lets look at passion and soul ... to practice that much and not bother to try and write commercial music that you know will sell shows an incredible amount of passion. as for soul, it is a reflection of HIS soul coming out of him, whether someone likes it or not is fairly redundant in the big scheme of things.
    arrogance - well i guess it depends on how we look at that. i have never heard vai say anything negative about other guitarists, or suggest he is the best thing on earth {again i have never heard it, i guess it's possible, but doubtful from my experiences with him (not personal, purely musical and reading of interviews etc)} was he confident? he was, why wouldn't he be? he had developed a relationship with his guitar (and that sounds funny, but that's how it is) where he knew how to get it to do what he was trying to get it do. so why on earth wouldn't he be confident, and why on earth shouldn't he be confident. confidence and arrogance are not necessarily bedfellows.....
    [now yngwie malmsteen was initially arrogant, or at least his demeanour and comments would suggest so, but i never met the guy, so i am not going to try and give him some kind of pseudo-psychological evaluation. he wrote some great pieces of music and executed them brilliantly, that is as much as a music lover can ask]
    i think vai may come across as arrogant to some folks because he is pretty goofy in a lot of ways and actually enjoys what he is doing. in a lot of ways when i see vai making grand gestures and the like playing live, it is more like he is making fun of it all than anything else, because he has become good enough at his craft to do so.
    In the piece below, sure there is some flash guitar playing, but there is melody, harmony and beauty and a unique character expressing himself through his chosen vessel. i see and hear passion and soul, if you want to characterise it that way ... as to whether anyone likes it or not is purely subjective. if you are not someone that listens to a lot of instrumental music, it probably just sounds like a lot of notes, because there is no vocal breaking it up, but that doesn't devalue it as music or grade it on a this has soul, and this doesn't basis. it purely means that perhaps instrumental music isn't your thing.

     
    kanakaris and mcchocchoc like this.
  23. dudley07726

    dudley07726 Forum Resident

    Location:
    FLA
    Boring.
     
  24. mcchocchoc

    mcchocchoc Forum Resident

    Location:
    Oregon
    Haha! Well put and pretty accurate. One of the times I hung out with Steve we watched his then new dvd release. He is a goofy guy and he is well aware of that. He loves what he does and has fun hamming it up. While watching the dvd jokes were made about what was happening onscreen, by myself and Steve.
     
    mark winstanley likes this.
  25. mcchocchoc

    mcchocchoc Forum Resident

    Location:
    Oregon
    Eh, to each their own. You don't like that kind of stuff. That's already been established.
     
    mark winstanley likes this.
Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.

Share This Page

molar-endocrine