Blu-Ray with 24/192 output from coax?

Discussion in 'Audio Hardware' started by bdiament, May 30, 2009.

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  1. bdiament

    bdiament Producer, Engineer, Soundkeeper Thread Starter

    Location:
    New York
    I've been investigating Blu-Ray as a vehicle for 24/192 stereo audio and so far, all the machines I've found only allow a max of 24/96 from their coax digital outputs.

    What I'd like to do is to issue Soundkeeper releases in audio only (or primarily audio) stereo 24/192 on Blu-Ray disks, in the same way we issue 24/96 audio only DVDs (like Classic and Chesky's "DAD"s). The 24/96 disks can be played on almost any ordinary DVD video player and those with coax outputs can feed external DACs. I want to do the same thing with 24/192 on Blu-Ray... if it was possible. So far, I haven't found a machine that will allow this.

    Anyone know of a Blu-Ray player that will definitely allow 24/192 stereo from its coax digital output?

    It seems 24/192 is currently limited to HDMI and that suggests a requirement for an AV receiver or HT processor in order to get the 24/192 tracks. I much prefer using a separate DAC, to get maximum performance.

    I've heard about Neil Young's new 10 disk Blu-Ray release. Am I to take it that in order to hear how good the 24/192 tracks sound, one must feed the signal into a receiver, HT processor or use the internal DAC of the Blu-Ray player? If true, the way I see it, this is a waste, as the listener is prevented from using the finest DAC(s) possible (which to my ears, do not live in receivers or processors).

    Best regards,
    Barry
    www.soundkeeperrecordings.com
    www.barrydiamentaudio.com
     
  2. PMC7027

    PMC7027 Forum Hall Of Fame

    Barry,
    Would it be possible to issue 24/192 on DVD? The new PS Audio Perfect Wave DAC will decode 24/192 if read from a DVD (udf 2.0 format, I believe) by its companion Perfect Wave transport.
    I've been considering this as a new transport/DAc combination but have not yet had a chance to listen. I'd certainly appreciate your opinion.
     
  3. charlie W

    charlie W EMA Level 8

    Location:
    Area Code 254
    I believe that is the standard for the Blu-ray format-24/192 audio via HDMI only and it's probably a copy protect issue.
     
  4. Black Elk

    Black Elk Music Lover

    Location:
    Bay Area, U.S.A.
    Firstly, you will need access to the Blu-Ray Disc specifications, or an in-depth Authoring specification, to see whether there is a User Control feature to allow 24/192 in the free-and-clear. All the major labels do not want such a thing, and prefer to limit digital outputs to 24/48. 24/96 can be made available as LPCM through DVD-V, but 24/192 requires the use of MLP and authoring as a DVD-A, and even then I am not sure that the disc can be flagged to output 24/192 (except via HDMI). The last thing the labels want is hi-rez masters being swapped like CD audio!

    If such a control does not exist, you need look no further, as there would be no requirement for any manufacturer to support it in hardware. If it does, you can continue to search.

    With regard to external DACs, there is nothing to stop a DAC manufacturer including a HDMI interface other than the added cost of the HDMI license. As HDTV continues to increase in market share, HDMI will become more prevalent, but don't be surprised if the high-end audio market continues to ignore it!

    The major players only want encrypted interfaces for hi-rez audio and video transmissions.
     
  5. thorbs

    thorbs Active Member

    Location:
    Seattle, WA
    According to the owners manual the new Oppo BDP 83 does not allow this outside of HDMI.

    Black Elk has the run down, and I am sure you already know this. Not much slips by you. :wave:
     
  6. bdiament

    bdiament Producer, Engineer, Soundkeeper Thread Starter

    Location:
    New York
    Hi David,


    To my knowledge, 24/192 on DVD would require the DVD-A format, i.e. a special player and a dead format. The DVD-V spec does not support PCM stereo higher than 24/96, which is how Soundkeeper has issued its 24/96 verions so far.

    I was hoping Blu-Ray would allow 24/192 for real but it seems there are limitations on how one can decode that 24/192.

    Best regards,
    Barry
    www.soundkeeperrecordings.com
    www.barrydiamentaudio.com
     
  7. bdiament

    bdiament Producer, Engineer, Soundkeeper Thread Starter

    Location:
    New York
    Hi Black Elk,


    Actually, if the players aren't going to allow it, the specs become moot.
    What a shame to have so much potential deliberately hamstrung.

    Best regards,
    Barry
    www.soundkeeperrecordings.com
    www.barrydiamentaudio.com
     
  8. Metoo

    Metoo Forum Hall Of Fame

    Location:
    Spain (EU)
  9. bdiament

    bdiament Producer, Engineer, Soundkeeper Thread Starter

    Location:
    New York
  10. spyderx

    spyderx New Member

    Location:
    SoCal
    From everything I have read and understand on this topic, you are unfortunately limited to HDMI or the analog outputs on the given player. That of course means you are limited to the DAC in either your receiver/pre-pro or BR player. This is the reality of the music/movie industry and their attempts at copy protection.

    I'd welcome an audiophile grade DAC with HDMI input for these high resolution formats. That is, if the media format ever takes off.
     
  11. Metoo

    Metoo Forum Hall Of Fame

    Location:
    Spain (EU)
    Perhaps this conundrum with 192/24 files is the reason why HDTracks is selling them as WAV files on a data DVD.

    Sorry Barry, I didn't realize that Vegas Pro was PC-only software. I just thought that it should be good coming from Sony the creators of BluRay.
     
  12. bdiament

    bdiament Producer, Engineer, Soundkeeper Thread Starter

    Location:
    New York
    Hi Metoo,

    Please don't apologize. I am grateful for the suggestion. :righton:

    I really like the "album" as a vehicle for musical expression and have resisted downloads or files with Soundkeeper because of the "singles" orientation I see.

    My hope was the Blu-Ray would provide a means of sharing the amazing 24/192 recordings the ULN-8 is capable of making. Now it seems to me the makers of the format (and its supporters) have deliberately cut off its feet, at least audio-wise.

    Best regards,
    Barry
    www.soundkeeperrecordings.com
    www.barrydiamentaudio.com
     
  13. Metoo

    Metoo Forum Hall Of Fame

    Location:
    Spain (EU)
  14. bdiament

    bdiament Producer, Engineer, Soundkeeper Thread Starter

    Location:
    New York
    Hi Metoo,

    That looks like what Reference Recordings does with their HRx disks, using DVD-Rs instead of pressings... much like Soundkeeper has been doing the past few years with our 24/96 disks.

    I have considered this (i.e. files - and will continue to) but again, these move away from the "album" toward a singles orientation I find less attractive than an album as a unit (including the carefully considered space between individual tracks).

    Why they are limited to the US, I don't know.

    Best regards,
    Barry
    www.soundkeeperrecordings.com
    www.barrydiamentaudio.com
     
  15. filper

    filper Forum Resident

    Will all BluRay players decode 192/24 via analogue output ?

    If so, why worry about passing 192/24 via coax ?

    Don't all Blu's have a standard Stereo analogue OUT ?
     
  16. Taurus

    Taurus Senior Member

    Location:
    Houston, Texas
    Shh, don't tell that to the Beatles or the King Crimson people. :angel:

    And 192/24 can be output via a dvd-audio player's digital output.....IF the manufacturers - of the hardware AND the software - feel like it: Benchmark DAC1 (near the bottom of the page). I actually saw and played around with the Panasonic player at Best Buy they mentioned, and saw the option in its setup menu for doing that.
     
  17. Shakey

    Shakey New Member

    Location:
    Chicago, Illinois
    Most onboard DACs can leave something to be desired, or in other words, can be bettered, I think.
     
  18. GreenDrazi

    GreenDrazi Truth is beauty

    Location:
    Atlanta, GA
    Blu-ray 192/24 is either HDMI or analog output. The majors are not going to allow it any other way.

    HDMI is too new for “the finest DAC(s) possible” for the immediate future, but it will be the standard in coming years.
     
  19. Taurus

    Taurus Senior Member

    Location:
    Houston, Texas
    What if the disc in question wasn't sold by one of the majors? Why couldn't a disc be non-protected if the artist or label desired that?
     
  20. bdiament

    bdiament Producer, Engineer, Soundkeeper Thread Starter

    Location:
    New York
    Hi filper,

    As far as I know, 24/192 is part of the BluRay standard so all players should be able to decode 24/192 via their analog output.

    The reason I'd want it on coax (same as with 24/96 on DVD-A) is that with a good external converter, this can provide significantly better performance than using the internal converter in the player.

    Best regards,
    Barry
    www.soundkeeperrecordings.com
    www.barrydiamentaudio.com
     
  21. bdiament

    bdiament Producer, Engineer, Soundkeeper Thread Starter

    Location:
    New York
    Hi Taurus,


    Good to know.
    Too bad it was only a single model from one manufacturer, for a format that isn't being supported anymore, outside of a diminishing number of exceptions.

    Best regards,
    Barry
    www.soundkeeperrecordings.com
    www.barrydiamentaudio.com
     
  22. filper

    filper Forum Resident

    I really should have thought of that, or at least read Barry's first post more carefully... thanks. :righton:

    Our loss then.
     
  23. Barry, I started a thread just like this over on AVS Forum, but yours is much better communicated.

    My frustration is from the consumer side; I want to listen to Neil's Archive in glorious 24/192 (I have Weiss DAC2 capable of 24/192 natively) but am relegated to using a pre/pro for processing (yuk) or buying a Pioneer 09FD player (8 Wolfson DACs, $3k list) where they've invested serious monies and parts in good analog output. To assume the $200-300 players spend any more than $5 on their analog stages is to assume wrong! I guess 24/96 ain't bad but then I don't even trust how well that downsampling is being done before it gets to my DAC. ARGH!
     
  24. emmodad

    emmodad Forum Resident

    Location:
    bay area, ca
    accessing 24/192 via HDMI breakout

    brief post, sorry i'm just too ill for detailed

    until the day when high-end DACs have HDMI inputs....it's indirect, but it is possible to legally access the 24/192 audio datastream from HDMI by using an HDMI breakout.

    to help consumers with early HDTV products w/ no HDMI connectors (ie monitors, projectors etc), there are HDMI breakout products which convert HDMI (audio + video on one connector) to DVI (video) + SPDIF (audio, TOS or coax) connectors; or HDMI to (video, component or RGB) + SPDIF audio

    read here:

    http://www.stevehoffman.tv/forums/showthread.php?p=3824378&highlight=convoluted#post3824378

    http://www.head-fi.org/forums/f7/oppo-dv-983h-its-finally-out-305527/#post3932989

    http://www.head-fi.org/forums/f7/using-sacd-player-adc-dac-302095/

    search my posts on hoffman and head-fi (user emmodad; often about accessing decoded HDCD from HDMI). it is most definately possible to feed an external DAC or other audio interface which accepts 24/192 SPDIF with hardware-decoded 20/44.1 HDCD, 24/192 DVD-A as well as 24/176.4 downsampled SACD via these methods. one bang-for-the-buck 24/192 system is oppo player + atlona hdmi-to-dvi converter + hdfury. maybe there are other newer items which provide 24/192 audio and could replace the atlona/hdfury combo

    also: newest HDfury product (converters which add a 1080p input to monitors or projectors with only DVI or RGB inputs) called HDfury2 is actually HDMI input with IIRC RGB or component video output AND an optical audio output jack; don't know if that is 96kHz or 192kHz capable optical. see the hdfury and curtpalme websites


    hth
     
  25. bdiament

    bdiament Producer, Engineer, Soundkeeper Thread Starter

    Location:
    New York
    Hi hth,

    Coincidentally, this morning, I was looking at some boxes that do this.
    The question becomes, can we get 24/192 on the coax out?

    Even if we can, the makers of Blu-Ray players are not absolved for forcing such a kludge as they hamstring the audio side of a new format.

    Some folks mention copyright. I say "copyright shmopyright" as folks who are going to bootleg, will find a way, as they always have and always will. Why do these companies choose to punish their paying customers?
    We have smart companies like Reference and Chesky offering 4x versions of their products as files. The customer effectively has the "master". Do the movie companies think they will prevent bootlegging by not allowing full access to the 24/192 tracks of a movie?

    Best regards,
    Barry
    www.soundkeeperrecordings.com
    www.barrydiamentaudio.com
     
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