Blu-Ray with 24/192 output from coax?

Hi filper,

Thank you for the thought.
Now that I've investigated Blu-Ray players (or at least started investigating them), I need to check out software (and burners) as well. There may be hope.

As to PS3, I've seen some positive comments in various enthusiast sites on the Web.
Do you have one of these?

I haven't even heard any Blu-Ray disks yet, though I've seen quite a bit of Blu-Ray video and so far, it looks great.

Best regards,
Barry
www.barrydiamentaudio.com
www.soundkeeperrecordings.com

 

Yes I do Barry, but not the definitive gear hooked up to it to make a worthy comment regarding it's proprietary internal DAC (which is why I posed the question).

For my current needs, I'm only using the Toslink audio connection right now.

 

If the blu-ray player can be a computer with a sound card:

Solution 1:
- Decode blu-ray disc with AnyDVD HD
- Play the blu-ray disc with Media Player Classic Home Cinema.
- Make sure output is bitperfect (ASIO/kernelstreaming/WASAPI).
- Works for LPCM and TrueHD, but not DTS-HD Master Audio.

Solution 2:
- Decode disc with AnyDVD HD
- Install Arcsoft TotalMedia Extreme to make DTS-HD decoding possible.
- Convert the blu-ray disc to 192/24 flac/wave files with eac3to.exe.
- Play the flac/wave files with any player.
- Make sure output is bitperfect (ASIO/kernelstreaming/WASAPI).
- Works for LPCM, TrueHD and DTS-HD Master Audio.

 

The conversion to flac/wave in solution 2 above should be doable on a Mac as well with WM Ware Fusion.

 

Hi sshd,

I guess that can be useful for someone who wants to undergo all the conversion processes involved.

Though it doesn't seem likely at this point with existing players (and perhaps with the HDMI license), I just want to connect an external DAC and just play the disk.

Best regards,
Barry
www.barrydiamentaudio.com
www.soundkeeperrecordings.com

 

If one gets a player from a brand that also sell service manuals (most Japanese ones?), I bet it can easily be modded to get the signal out.

 

Barry,
Forgive me if this has been mentioned but I haven't read all the reply's. First, you need to determine your target audience. If the audience is audiophiles (I hate that term but I think it applies), you need to consider 24/192 DVD-A's. There are far more Universal players in primary audio systems than Blu-Ray, many which offer excellent playback via their analog outputs. If you intent to offer Blu-Ray without video content I think you may get a lot of resistance.

A great many audiophiles now incorporate some method of HD playback within their systems. You may want to consider 2 disc sets with a DVD-A and a 24/192 data disc.

Of course if you think that the recordings may appeal to a wider group then go with CD.

 

If you just want a player for your own needs, MSB offers mods to players that removes the 24/192 limit. I think they charge $600 for the mod to your player.

 

Hi TommyTunes,

As I see it, DVD-A is moribund, so that is beyond consideration (for me).

We already offer DVD-V format disks without video content (as do Classic and Chesky) and I see no problem with these. Neither, apparently, do any of our customers. The point of these was to get 24/96 out of commonly available players - and not require menu navigation but rather to be able to play these as simply as one can play a CD.

The real consideration for me is how to get the best audio quality possible on a disk. At 24/96, I see that as DVD. At 24/192, from my perspective, Blu-Ray is the only remaining candidate.

Most of the "target audience" might prefer files-on-disk or downloads but my prime concern (actually, the only concern) is serving the music and the artist's intentions, which means -for the artists I would choose to work with- preserving the "album" as the vehicle for musical expression. This would include a specific sequence of tracks as well as the specific spacing between them.

Files-on-disk and downloads as they currently stand, are "singles" oriented, which I'm not interested in for Soundkeeper. I've thought long and hard about this and consulted with a few folks whose opinions I value. This could change if I find a way to preserve the album in a files format, while still allowing the listener to access particular tracks - as they can right now with a disk.

At this moment, it seems 24/192, at least on disk, is limited to the internal decoders in the player, AV receiver or HT processor. We may still issue disks in this format simply because the sound from our 24/192 recordings, using the ULN-8, is so much better than anything I've ever heard before.

Best regards,
Barry
www.barrydiamentaudio.com
www.soundkeeperrecordings.com

 

Hi TommyTunes,

Do you have any links for this?
I haven't been able to find anything other than a 192 upsampling mod (something I would reject in any player because to my ears, real-time src exacts a sonic price).

Best regards,
Barry
www.barrydiamentaudio.com
www.soundkeeperrecordings.com

 

Hi Barry,

IMHO, the files on disc being a "singles" oriented solution is a non-issue. If you only offer the full album, even if the 192/24 files are separated on the data DVD you offer, it will be an album, period. Provided, of course, that you include the spaces between the songs on the files themselves as others are doing.

You mention DVD-A being moribund, but I have the feeling that there are more audiophiles with universal players out there, than with BluRay players.
I can understand your wanting to use a newer technology that might have more future, though.

I can also understand your interest in having the people be able to play your 192/24 files with a good DAC that truly delivers what was recorded. But you forget that, much like what happens with Internet page design, not all people will be able to listen to your music as you intended it.

If you release WAV files on a data DVD, some people will be able to copy them to their hard disks and play them through any DAC of their choice, others will opt to make DVD-Audios out of it. But if you solely release the music on BluRay, only those who have BluRay capability will be able to listen to your music. And, as you have been finding out, unless they work out some mods they will not get to hear the music as you intend.

I agree with TommyTunes that you have to think not only about how you would like for people to hear your music, but what people really have as far as hardware and software playback possibilities.

I might, for example, be interested in purchasing one or more of your future titles, but in no way am I going to purchase a BluRay player to listen to them. For me, if you want to deliver a preset full album experience on disc it would have to be DVD-Audio or I wouldn't be able to listen to your music. Yet, I think I'd prefer the 192/24-album-on-data-disc option. In this way, I could either play the files out of my hard disk or author my own DVD-Audio and keep the original disc as backup.

Again, I can understand your interest in people listening to your work with the best DAC out there, but how many people out there have, or are going to have that level of hardware or pay for the mods needed for their current player to do this any time soon?

Just my 2-cents worth.

 

http://www.msbtech.com/products/productsHome.php
Scroll down towards the bottom of the page

 

Hi Metoo,

Thanks for your input.

Clearly, I have a different perspective on this than a lot of folks do.

Soundkeeper issues 24/96 on DVD (video format) because anyone with a DVD player can take advantage of the higher res. Those who connect external DACs to the coax outputs of their DVD players can maximize the experience.

I know a lot of audiophiles have DVD-A players or universal players, etc. While I wish DVD-A was still viable, from my perspective, it is not. My feeling is the format could have been been conceived for audio purposes. I understand you may differ on this.

I also understand you see files-on-disk as "singles" as a "non-issue".
I'm saying for me, it is a major issue. So big in fact, it is a deal breaker.

Listening to the whole collection of tracks that makes up an album is, to my mind, not at all the same thing as listening to the album. When software (or the user) makes arbitrary decisions on how much space to put between tracks, the artist's intention (and that is what Soundkeeper is about) is removed from the picture and replaced with someone else's intention (the user or the software designer), merely using the artist's work as "content". Here again, I understand you feel differently.

As to what people really have in terms of playback capability, this is one of the reasons why I find DVD (in video format) appealing. Almost everyone has a DVD player and almost every DVD player can do 24/96, whether from its internal converters or via coax output to an external DAC.

This is also why I would consider Blu-Ray... if it survives and if it becomes a standard like DVD (or CD) currently are. This won't happen unless and until I feel Blu-Ray has truly arrived. I certainly don't want to require purchase of a player folks don't already have (as DVD-A would be for most folks I know). That is why Soundkeeper currently issues in formats most folks can play (CD, CD-R, DVD-R in video format). Each of these can be heard to its best advantage if folks feed external DACs. They don't need to have the best hardware. There are many external DACs that will offer significant improvements over the internal ones in their players.

We'll issue 24/192 when and if there is a viable, popular format that preserves the artist's intentions 100%, i.e. preserves the album as album.

That might be Blu-Ray or it might not be. I'll have to see. Right now, this thread is about my starting to consider it as a possibility and the limitations I've found so far in terms of taking it up a notch from what internal decoders, receivers and HT processors can do. I don't consider the absence of 192 on coax a deal breaker by any means but I do find it a disappointment, putting a ceiling on how some (of many) could hear the results.

We'll see.

Best regards,
Barry
www.barrydiamentaudio.com
www.soundkeeperrecordings.com

 

Thanks Tom.
I don't see any mention of doing this for Blu-Ray though.
Did I miss it?

Best regards,
Barry
www.barrydiamentaudio.com
www.soundkeeperrecordings.com

 

This is not exactly true given your current exacting playback guidelines/wishes: Many people do have DVD players, but most of them will play 96/24 files at 48/24 max unless people are aware that they have to change the default audio settings to 96kHz. This is the case with all DVD players I've see out there. So, somebody might have bought the DVD from you and, yet, not have listened to it at real 96/24 yet.

 

No, Barry, this is not at all what I am saying. I hate it when the original spaces between the original album are changed or, worst, eliminated altogether.

What I do not understand is why a disc with the full album in separate numbered files with the exact amount of space you want between songs added at the end of each file so that they are played contigously and continously is deemed by you a "singles" approach.

The albums that I have bought as files on the Internet (I do not like purchasing singles) all come in this format and when I play the whole album through (which is how I usually listen to music) the correct spacing between the songs is there. This is why I see the full-album-on-separated-files on a data DVD as a non-issue.

Now, regarding DVD-A: If you author discs with no menus you can easily author a DVD-Audio with no menus that plays upon loading. (I say this because I know for a fact that menu creation is one of the most complicated things when it comes to DVD-V or DVD-Audio authoring). Since you offer the possibility of people purchasing DVD+Rs you can, then, offer the DVD-A on a DVD+R option to those who want it. It's just a matter of you keeping an ISO file on your hard disk with the image of the DVD-A to burn from it when someone orders. Then, you'll be able to assess how many people are truly interested in DVD-A in the real world now.

Another possibility is to offer HDADs, where you have an AUDIO_TS folder with the music @ 192/24 in DVD-Audio format and a VIDEO_TS folder with the music at 96/24 as you already do now on the same disc. If it's in stereo, it will usually fit into a normal single-layer disc. Then, you've got the best of both worlds in one.

 

Oops. What I meant to type there was my feeling is the format could have been better conceived for audio purposes.

Best regards,
Barry
www.barrydiamentaudio.com
www.soundkeeperrecordings.com

 

I understood you. Yet, you can author a DVD-A to start by itself upon starting playback, no menu. The same goes for DVD-V. In Audio DVD Creator, for example, there's an option where you can set the disc to play directly upon loading. Then, if you want to go to a specific song you always have the option of going to the menu and choosing the track from there.

 

Hi Metoo,

What you're saying is true. I would hope anyone trying to play a 24/96 disk on their DVD player and hear it at maximum quality will reset the player's internal menu to send 24/96 out of the coax output.

Of course, for folks using the player's internal converters, this won't matter.

Still, the format Soundkeeper provides is exactly true to my intent, 100%. If the user sets the menu properly, they can feed an external DAC and hear the disk at its best.

Also, the released format is also depending on the user to make sure their player is plugged in and that the disk is not placed in the player label side down, etc.. ;-}

Best regards,
Barry
www.barrydiamentaudio.com
www.soundkeeperrecordings.com

 

Hi Metoo,

I have considered having the silence at the end of each track, as appropriate but if the user (or their software) have decided say, on two seconds of silence between every track they play, these two seconds will be added to the silence already embedded on the tracks and again, the artist's intention is destroyed. The playback can only be as intended, if the user sets the software for no spaces between tracks -- on software that allows this.

For this reason, I feel there is no way to guarantee the artist's intentions are maintained with files. Once the spacing as determined by the artist is gone, as far as I'm concerned, we have a collection of singles. Soundkeeper then, will protect the artist's intentions.

As to DVD-A, I'm just not interested in the format. Whatever its merits, my view is that it has failed as a popular medium for music distribution. Not enough folks have these machines in their homes.

By the way, the format Soundkeeper offers is DVD-R (not +R).

DVD-A could have been the ideal 24/192 format. Perhaps in many ways, it still is. Or was. It just didn't make it in the market place. Heck, it didn't even make it at my place. There was never enough interest to create a wide variety of releases and I never had enough interest to purchase a player.

For all I know, Blu-Ray may never take off either. But the manufacturers, at the very least, avoided (or at least shortened) yet one more silly "format war". Now we have a "winner" but one deliberatly debilitated it seems, by licensing and more corporate nonsense. As if punishing their paying customers will do anything at all to stop bootleggers - who are even less interested in quality, if it can be imagined, than the corporations themselves.

Best regards,
Barry
www.soundkeeperrecordings.com
www.barrydiamentaudio.com

 

Hi Metoo,

This is good to know. Still, like most folks I know, I choose to go in a direction other than DVD-A.

Best regards,
Barry
www.soundkeeperrecordings.com
www.barrydiamentaudio.com

 

Barry,
If you do decide to go with 192/24 on Blu-Ray, would you please consider offering the albums as downloads (wav files)? When my new PS Audio gear arrives in August I'll be equipped for 192/24 from DVD-R, not from Blu-Ray. TV "quality" is not important enough for me to consider HDTV so I don't see myself getting into it aor Blu-Ray until standard definition TV disappears.

 

Hi Barry,

What direction are they going?

Tim

 

Believe me when I tell you that this will always be the case. This is why I mentioned programming for the Internet. If you create a page that works with Javascript and the person who browses to it has Javascript deactivated, he/she will never see it as intended. So, at the end of the day, this worries could be simply an excercise in futility.

The normal way that files with the spaces appended will play is as was intended. Then, there are klutz everywhere, even when it comes to DVD, CD, or SACD playback. No true way to foolproof any release. Much less with the bevy of formats out there and the different levels of technology users.

Then again, if you want the best playback quality and going per what you have pointed out here before, the best playback will be directly from a hard disk, not a DVD. This can be easily achieved by copying WAV files on a data DVD to a hard disk.

I suggest you look into DVD+R. It's got better error correction than your regular DVD-R.

For all those format wars that preceded this format (not to mention the current state of the economy at an international level) many people are not adopting Blu-Ray. At least not yet. So, it would seem you'll have to wait this out at least a little bit more.

Regards

 

Hi David,

I have considered downloads and files-on-disk.
As these do not preserve the artist's intention (by keeping an album as an album with the intended spacing between tracks decided by the artist and no one else), there are no plans to offer these.

For now, Soundkeeper is disk only. That said, some of our customers have extracted files from disk for use on their music servers.

Best regards,
Barry
www.soundkeeperrecordings.com
www.barrydiamentaudio.com