Blu-Ray with 24/192 output from coax?

Hi Tim,

Most folks I know have CD players and DVD players. A few are starting to get into Blu-Ray. We'll see if that takes off.

Best regards,
Barry
www.soundkeeperrecordings.com
www.barrydiamentaudio.com

 

Hi Metoo,

It is not the case when the music exists on disk, mastered exactly as the artist intends. Put a disk in the player, hit play and you hear the album as the artist intended it to be heard.

Of course, if someone wants to hit pause between each track, hit the "Shuffle" button or unplug their player, there is nothing that can be done to help them.

At least with disks, the recording is provided in a format where it would take deliberate action on the user's part to NOT hear the artist's intention.

Two things:
1. I don't know that it is supported by as many players as plain DVD-R.
2. No problems with errors on Soundkeeper DVD-Rs (or CD-Rs). In fact, some folks have commented on our burns being a first in their experience in freedom from errors.

Right now, we've got our 16/44 and 24/96 formats worked out.
I started this thread in consideration of a 24/192 format ... on disk.

Best regards,
Barry
www.soundkeeperrecordings.com
www.barrydiamentaudio.com

 

Sorry, to have somewhat derailed this thread. It seems you have a good idea of what you want and what you need.

 

Hi Metoo,

I'm always interested in what folks have to say.
I just have my own perspectives too.

Please don't apologize. I am grateful for your input.

Best regards,
Barry
www.soundkeeperrecordings.com
www.barrydiamentaudio.com

 

The Blu-ray format is going to be around for some time and I believe will be a great platform for delivering audiophile sound. AIX Records, a well-known label that produced some great DVD-Audios, is venturing into a Blu-ray release very soon.

http://www.aixrecords.com/index.html

 

hey Barry....

With thanks to a poster over at audiogon, I may have found your coax 24/192 audio splitter for your blu-ray player.

http://http://www.allaboutadapters.com/hdautooptoco.html

 

Hi chosenhandle,

Definitely looks interesting.
The question will be "will the disks and/or players let it get to the 24/192 track?"

Thanks for the lead.

Best regards,
Barry
www.soundkeeperrecordings.com
www.barrydiamentaudio.com

 

So in other words, if I buy an album and don't listen to it from start to finish from track 1 to track 11, in that order I'm violating the artist and their wishes? That's pretty facist, considering I can count on one hand how many records I've heard in the last 20 years that had enough strong material to do that with.

Wow, that's going to keep your artists starving for a long time.

What makes you think that because someone bought the album that they are going to listen to it that way anyway?

When you pick up one of your favorite albums and just play one or two tracks and put it back in the sleeve are you violating the artists wishes?

 

Hi Tonepub,

I never said that not listening to the whole album is "violating the artist's wishes". The point is, while one is free to listen to an album or its contents any way they want to of course, the only way I know to hear the album in its entirety as the artist intended, is from disk.

Listen to all the tracks in order on a music server and that's all you have: a conglomeration of tracks from the album but missing the feel and flow created by the artist when they decided how one track should move into the next.

I understand your perspective but do not agree that it is in any way "fascist" to attempt to preserve the artist's vision for the album. Quite the contrary, it is ensuring the art is not subsumed by considerations of commerce.

If money was all that Soundkeeper was about, it would be quite easy to issue DVD-Rs containing folders of AIFs, WAVs, FLACs, MP3s, etc. at $45 or so per disk. These would appreciably increase profits over the regular CDs, CD-Rs and 24/96 DVD-Rs (in video format) we release.

I happen to love the album as a vehicle for musical expression. I don't always listen to every track but often that is exactly what I do, when I want to spend time with an artist's music. If you disagree, I understand and respect your preferences but please don't call it "fascist" because I choose a different path than you might.

Best regards,
Barry
www.soundkeeperrecordings.com
www.barrydiamentaudio.com

 

I should add that in view of how most folks feel about this, it continues to be under consideration.

So far, only two of those with whom I've consulted (outside of the artists) see it as I do. One is an audio writer whose work and ears I have great respect for. Another is an owner of a well-known "audiophile" label (who nonetheless does offer his releases as downloads).

While it remains under consideration, for now at least, this is how I feel.

Best regards,
Barry
www.soundkeeperrecordings.com
www.barrydiamentaudio.com

 

Barry, you continue to impress me with not only your knowledge and insight, but your gracious and calm demeanor even when faced with what I consider borderline outrageous and inappropriate comments by others. You certainly have my respect for not only your knowledge, but also your character.

Kudos sir.

 

Barry is a class act and very gracious to put up with so much crap here and on many other forums. If only we could all learn to emulate him on line and in person.

As always, thank you for continuing to share here Barry!

 

It's quite harsh for TONEPUB to call fascist your desire to keep the artists' work intact as an album, preserving track order and flow! Obviously the user still has the freedom to alter the playback order regardless (especially with digital media) so that is a really stupid comment.
When playing an LP what do you do? Do you let it play through? Do you get up and lift the needle from track to track in an order that your mood desires?
Perhaps most will let it play through out of sheer laziness, not wanting to get up and make a change. Remotes have spoiled us and added to our self created ADD.
Also, since records have 2 sides it allowed artists to present the A side with a different mood than the B side. This is something that is lost in the CD medium.

I am with Barry on this one and can appreciate his stance.

I like to listen to albums in their entirety most of the time. The artist takes you on a journey. I can't imagine listening to 1 or 2 random tracks from almost any Pink Floyd album and getting the same effect as listening to the same album from start to finish. The same goes for albums by Radiohead and many other artists. I can't imagine listening to Zeppelin's Heartbreaker from their second album without it being followed by Living Loving Maid with the exact gap presented on the album. Maybe it's just me, but there are people out there who are looking for the album experience that Barry is trying to preserve and I appreciate that.

Ripping/copying tracks to your computer with gaps appended intact at the end of each track does not guarantee you will get gapless playback via winamp for example, without changing some buffer settings.

I worked on a compilation for a friend and his band, selecting track order and spacing between songs. Just when I thought I had finally nailed it, upon repeated listening it was realized that the album was not being presented at a pace suited to the music. This was all caused by the gaps between songs.

It has more effect than may be realized.

Also, keep in mind that the HDMI v1.4 spec is about to be released.
http://www.hdmi.org/manufacturer/hdmi_1_4/hdmi_1_4_faq.aspx#1

I believe there was much talk (did not find much via google) to produce a standard for Blu-Ray to be a carrier for high resolution audio without the use of a video display, so that the playback experience is just like using a CD. Was that supposed to be part of the HDMI v1.4 spec? I can't recall and the v1.4 spec does not make mention of that.

I also agree that the Blu-Ray medium should not be so crippled. It would be really nice to have 24/192 unhampered via coax. But as others have said, it probably won't happen. DACs with HDMI inputs will have to start cropping up for that purpose, or some of the conversion boxes/cables (extra purchased equipment) will have to be used.

TV

 

For those of us using analog outs rather than coax, is there any scenario in which a player with 24/192 DACs, playing a 24/192 blu-ray source (such as Neil Young's blu-ray archives), would not do the conversion directly from 24/192 to analog?

I ask this question because players can have "goofy" designs. My Pioneer Elite 47ai doesn't convert from DSD to analog directly when playing SACDs, for example. The player actually converts DSD to PCM, and then converts to analog. While I'm not sure whether the extra conversion is discernible, it certainly is alarming to purists.

My hope is that blu-ray players with analog outs convert directly from 24/192 to analog. I can say that the sound on the Neil Young blu-ray archives is spectacular through the analog outs on a Sony s550.

 

Wow, what a discussion! I think the art of creating an album is being pushed out the door with the IPod crowd. Kids aren't going to buy 12 songs from most artists, they'll just want the tracks they hear on the radio and TV.

Also, many classic albums were written to be one long piece of music with each song flowing into the next, like DSOTM and Band On the Run. BD is too classy of a guy to flame TonePub, but I'll tell him to pipe down the "facist" comment. All they were trying to say is that the artist, along with the producer, tend to have a method to the order of the songs. Some albums tell a story. Some artists still include skits and intro's as separate tracks that never are heard on the radio. Rap albums were great for these back in the day.

 

Any news about 24/192 output from coax for Blue-Ray?

I was thinking of getting a blueray-player for my Lyngdorf amp but how would I connect it if there is no 24/192 digitaloutput from the Blue-Ray player except this HDMI output.

 

Hi Robert,

I've seen reports of devices that extract the audio from an HDMI output. However, I have not yet had the opportunity to audition any of these.

Best regards,
Barry
www.soundkeeperrecordings.com
www.barrydiamentaudio.com

 

Hi Metoo,

Looking back over this thread several months later, has been interesting.

In the time since I started the thread, I have been experimenting with a music server and am finding it positive. In retrospect, the idea of preserving the spacing on an album by attaching the silence to the end of each track is a really good idea.

I think you mentioned a number of really good ideas and reading my replies, they now seem argumentative. That was not my intention and for that, I apologize. I still want to preserve the "album". (It seems even Apple is finally moving in this direction with the iTunes store.) But I now believe this can be done reasonably by making the silence part of the track.

Anyway, I just want to say thank you again for your thoughtful and much appreciated input.

Best regards,
Barry
www.soundkeeperrecordings.com
www.barrydiamentaudio.com

 

hi Barry.
please, tell us how is done if (or when) you have secure infos, i'm really interested.
thanks in advance and thanks again to quote Metoo...

great Metoo. i can say the same, is how i'm hearing now...directly from a hard disk!
after dozen tests i'm sure that DVD+R is the way to go.

cheers for you all!

 

Hi jorgeluiz,

I have not yet gotten to play with one of these devices and determine if there is one that can truly deliver a 24/192 stream, much less ascertain the quality.

With licensing issues surrounding HDMI and Blu-ray and in the face of growing digital delivery, I'm not sure this is a direction I'll choose to go in. Files-on-disc seems much easier and it gives the user the option to use the files in a music server, burn a DVD-A, etc.

Best regards,
Barry
www.soundkeeperrecordings.com
www.barrydiamentaudio.com

 

I'm told that this is possible with the OPPO BDP-83 and a Blu-ray 24/192 source (e.g. Neil Young Blu-ray collection).

 

1/ somewhat earlier in this thread......

http://www.stevehoffman.tv/forums/showpost.php?p=4475144&postcount=24

both atlona AT-HDMI-DVI (SPDIF coax) (product discontinued? try ebay) and atlona AT-HD570 Audio De-embedder (SPDIF optical) operate correctly providing 24/192 from oppo BDP-83


2/ more info (with a bit of focus on extraction of decoded HDCD and DSD>LPCM (ie DSD > 24/176.4 from ps3)......

http://www.stevehoffman.tv/forums/showpost.php?p=4880549&postcount=50 [ skip to point /2/ ]

http://www.stevehoffman.tv/forums/showpost.php?p=4805289&postcount=6

http://www.stevehoffman.tv/forums/showpost.php?p=4808501&postcount=10

http://www.stevehoffman.tv/forums/showpost.php?p=4805283&postcount=2


3/ ps audio has alluded that the upcoming Digital Lens product (latest price indications: USD1000-1500) will have one or more HDMI inputs and provide audio extraction. however, development has been delayed according to most recent psa forum posting.

 

No offense but these are nothing but a history of your posts saying that the Atlona devices claim 24/192. We know that they claim 24/192! I think the question was: who has actually used one, and can he/she confirm that things like BluRay audio (relegated, by design, to 24/48 downmix via normal digital outs, Oppo included) output 24/192 via SPDIF....for our waiting DACs. We want Neil Young Archives 24/192 sent to a DAC.

The Oppo's ability to do 24/192 via SPDIF (DVD-A) is well known and not part of this inquiry. And no, NekoAudio, it can't do BlURay 24/192 except via HDMI or analog outs. The BD design is to limit non-HDMI digitally to 24/48.

PS Audio's HDMI implemntation is moot; it is I2S carried on an HDMI cable, and proprietary to their Transport to DAC communication (same as what Wyred4Sound is designing).

 

Oh, too bad. This doesn't match with what one of my customers told me he did using the Neil Young set, but I don't know if he did anything to verify it.