Blue Note LP originals. Why the record $ highs with all new reissues?

Discussion in 'Music Corner' started by RelayerNJ, Jan 5, 2014.

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  1. Scott Wheeler

    Scott Wheeler Forum Resident

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    Then maybe you will want the new series on 33
     
  2. hvbias

    hvbias Midrange magic

    Location:
    Northeast
    In VG condition it's not a rare record at all, and doing a completed search on Ebay I found several copies that sold for under $50. In my opinion that is not "through the roof". I gave true near mint as an example as that condition is not very common on a record people were playing a lot. And that's the condition I sought out since it's a quiet record, any surface noise is distracting (for me).
     
  3. btf1980

    btf1980 Senior Member

    Location:
    NYC
    Scott, you have completely missed the crux of everything I said.

    1. No I don't think art schools are driving the costs of fine art market. I was simply pointing out the canon for art appreciation is different from people who buy original pressings of jazz records. Is that a controversial statement?

    2. Who says I'm unaware of private art collectors? I come from a family of educators and some are private art collectors. My father is a history Professor and he's a pretty well respected consultant with regards to West African art. This is literally the environment I was raised and nurtured in.

    3. I was speaking about the prices of Kind of Blue relative to prices of really expensive titles like this Hank Mobley record for example. When KoB is going for that kind of money, you drop me a note. The point I was making was that just because something is reissued a lot doesn't mean it will have an effect on original pressings, as was alluded to with copies of artwork making the original worth more. If that was the case, original pressings of KoB would be worth a lot more than what it is.

    4. Blue Note the label have been reissued a lot. There are many titles that have not been reissued to death from Blue Note. Many of them command a pretty penny. This is all I said. I'm not sure why this confusing.

    5. Well, art markets are centuries old. Before we start making comparisons and juxtapositions with something, we need to take into account that they aren't parallels.

    I hope I made myself clear.
     
    Last edited: Jan 6, 2014
  4. Scott Wheeler

    Scott Wheeler Forum Resident

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    VG actually means really aweful. Anything worth anything will be NM. Those are going for in excess of 200 bucks for stereo and even more for mono. The same record could be bought for 10-20 bucks just 10 years ago. That is going through the roof in my book as a record collector.
     
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  5. aoxomoxoa

    aoxomoxoa I'm an ear sitting in the sky

    Location:
    USA
    Those were going for a lot more ten years ago than $10-20 bucks. But they have almost doubled in value in the last ten years. If only I was able to hold in to all the ones I got at estate auctions, etc but alas I needed money back then more than collectibles.
     
  6. Scott Wheeler

    Scott Wheeler Forum Resident

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    Wouldn't be the first time :laugh:

    I don't know if it is controversial as much as I don't think it matters.

    Then I would think you would know that they are the ones driving the market as is the case for original Blue Note LPs.


    The point I am making is that the *trend* has actually hit titles like Kind of Blue. Kind of Blue is not a rare record like all those 1500 series Blue Notes but it has had a very similar spike in price as those Blue Notes. Same trend but different base price. The Blue Notes were already priced in accordance with their scarcity before this recent spike.

    But some of the most reissued titles are also some of the most expensive originals.

    Picasso, Pollock, Warhol, etc etc. Plenty of artists this century and even in the last few decades that are fetching very very high prices. The art may be old in many cases but the market as we know it is a modern phenomenon.

    You were always clear. I just think you are completely wrong on this one. I think your arguments fail. No biggie though. I hope you are right. I would love to get me some original Blue Notes at lower prices
     
  7. Scott Wheeler

    Scott Wheeler Forum Resident

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    I guess I was lucky then.

    Ya know what? I take it back. It was almost 20 years ago when i bought my original Kind of Blue. geez time flies.
     
  8. Raunchnroll

    Raunchnroll Senior Member

    Location:
    Seattle
    I've heard variations on 'wait till the bottom drops out' applied to a lot of collectibles and antiques over a lot of years. Its possible to discern, with some degree of accuracy, what kinds of items will drop out and what won't. Original jazz records are linked into human culture and history. Good music transcends age, gender, nationality, & ethnicity. Blue Notes are not beanie babies or artificially made collectibles (collectors, 'numbered' and/or 'limited' editions, commemoratives, etc. ) common to the realm of stamps, coins, sports cards, books, guns, prints, and other such items. Even in these categories, theres a huge gulf in value between the original/historic and the artificially created 'collectible' or replica. Music, just like cinema, can be art. It generates beautiful & artistic posters, photography, books, and the very material trappings that make up the genre itself (i.e. instruments, costumes, etc.)

    How many millionaires are in the US alone? How many are in other countries? Then think..... how many annual incomes run 100k and over? The numbers are in the millions in the US alone. When rare, coveted, iconic records - in excellent condition - number only in the thousands it doesn't take many people to bring the occasional loose one up into the hundreds and even thousands in dollar value. That isn't that much money in the big picture. Records are a relatively cheap hobby. I suspect most people here get more pleasure out of a $30 record than they do a $30 meal. At least - one sticks with you longer. Nowadays its common to see people whose income clearly can't afford the cars they drive and the garments and jewelry they wear - but they nevertheless possess them. These are trappings that cost as much -and usually more- than the records and even Blue Notes the average collector moans about paying for. Where theres a will theres a way. Its all in your priorities. The bottom ain't dropping out anytime soon. And if it ever does....who cares. Its only money. You still have the music.
     
    Last edited: Jan 6, 2014
    2xUeL, Driver 8, SAMAUL and 8 others like this.
  9. btf1980

    btf1980 Senior Member

    Location:
    NYC
    I agree with this, and music is art. With regards to your last point. I think the people who spent a small fortune on these records will care if the bottom drops when they are alive. I certainly would.
     
  10. Raunchnroll

    Raunchnroll Senior Member

    Location:
    Seattle
    Well some might - the folks that bought them primarily as investments. I think more of the top end payers straddle the boundary between investment and collector/enthusiast.

    Life is not certain of course, there is no guaranteed safe investment. When economic times take a down turn, something thats 'known' within the realm of dealers & serious collectors is that wealthy people who aren't collectors per se turn to investing in tangible, physical items rather than stocks and money markets or even real estate and development concerns. In a sketchy market, owning rare vintage wine, art, gold & silver items, historic weapons, presidential items etc. is better than owning a piece of paper that says you own something. I've attended national antique shows and met scruffy, average looking dudes in jeans and flannel shirts before being told with a whisper 'thats the CEO of (insert major financial institution here) or the vice-pres. of overseas operations at (insert major energy corp. here).' I had no clue.
     
  11. btf1980

    btf1980 Senior Member

    Location:
    NYC
    Fair enough, we can agree to disagree. Time will tell. I think with regards to jazz music, what will remain in the canon is the music itself. The people coveting original pressings will continue to shrink in my opinion. It isn't growing. If you think it is, then take a look around who is there and who is discussing original pressings of jazz records. Private art dealers and networks are growing, and this is the largest it has ever been. As you rightly alluded to, there are current artists whose work command a pretty penny. The art world is fluid and continuous in that regard, which is why I think you can't compare it with collectors of original pressings of jazz records. Art regardless of the era is coveted. The collector who chases original pressings of jazz records is only interested in a time period (50s and 60s). They covet nothing else. I've known many, and I've been acquainted with dozens more. They are almost universally uniform in this regard. The art collector world at least is diverse and varied in scope and eras. From antiquity to the present. The comparison between the two just seems off to me. You're free to disagree of course.
     
  12. JMCIII

    JMCIII Music lover first, audiophile second.



    Had to give my sub up after my divorce (#468). Sigh.................... :oops:
     
  13. Raunchnroll

    Raunchnroll Senior Member

    Location:
    Seattle
    Anecdotally of course, this is a difficult assessment to make. Especially to say the numbers of people aren't growing. Overseas buyers are already affecting the record market. Whats more likely to occur is a shifting of the buyer market. Meanwhile the world population grows, more and more fine + original blue notes are lost over time (inevitable). Think about it.....how many new jazz enthusiasts on this earth (who become collectors) will it take to sustain a market of which the number of available items are not very large to begin with? I've been in collecting fields that have been predicting the big-fall out for decades. In fact, in some of them there has already been a fairly complete turnover to a new generation. But prices aren't necessarily falling. Within the field some values do level out, some fall back, and others continue upward.
     
  14. Supafly

    Supafly Forum Resident

    Location:
    Glen Mills, Pa
    I definitely think the overseas market especially Japan is huge and really driving prices. Now whether that market keeps up the demand I donno. I really do enjoy the original Blue Notes that I own.
     
  15. antielectrons

    antielectrons Well-Known Member

    Location:
    UK
    I used to spend $$$$ on original Blue Note's until I heard and saw what Music Matters is doing. These guys are amazing.

    I have a pet theory about collectors... Something about a fear of death.
     
  16. johnt23

    johnt23 Forum Resident

    Location:
    Oregon
    Let's take out our crystal balls and break it down. In the future:
    1. Will there be an appreciation for jazz? - Yes.
    2. Will there be a desire to own the music? - Yes.
    3. Will there be a desire to own it in lp format? - Yes.
    4. Will there be a desire to own better quality pressings? - Yes, probably.
    5. Will first-pressings be desired? - Yes, probably.
    6. Will the things that collector's put a premium on (the obsession with condition, etc) still be prized? - Maybe
    7. If condition is prized, will the future generation(s) be willing to pay the high prices we see today? - A very big maybe.

    The world of art collecting is very unique and lives in an island unto itself. You can't compare the two. Look at coins and stamps. Look at other genres of record collecting. I'm not making guarantees, just pointing out that these values are seriously in flux, based on the whims of a very small market of collectors.
     
  17. btf1980

    btf1980 Senior Member

    Location:
    NYC
    Certainly. Everything here is anecdotally of course.

    Let me ask you about your collecting fields. Have you seen a big fall out in some things over the years, and if so what?
     
  18. Supafly

    Supafly Forum Resident

    Location:
    Glen Mills, Pa
  19. SBurke

    SBurke Nostalgia Junkie

    Location:
    Philadelphia, PA
    That's a fascinating point. :cheers:
     
  20. Dave S

    Dave S Forum Resident

    The analogy with art is not a good one. When you buy a Picasso, you are buying an unique piece of art. There may be similar paintings, but your particular painting is unique. An original Blue Note LP is not unique.
     
  21. reeler

    reeler Forum Resident

    Some people want the real thing. I read that some of the Japanese collectors pay top dollar for these and then NEVER PLAY them. It's a historical thing- maybe someday someone will thank them for that. Besides the realness factor, it would also stand to reason that the magnetic master tapes had more sound particles on them 50+ years ago than they do now.
     
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  22. aoxomoxoa

    aoxomoxoa I'm an ear sitting in the sky

    Location:
    USA
  23. Dave S

    Dave S Forum Resident

    Well, even in the art market, painters go in and out of fashion.
     
  24. action pact

    action pact Music Omnivore

    I kind of like having them broken up like that... it gives me an opportunity to savor the individual pieces, especially on some of the hard bop sessions that tend to all sound similar.

    Of course, the double 45s are not for when I'm sitting and reading a book!
     
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  25. Wally Swift

    Wally Swift Yo-Yoing where I will...

    Location:
    Brooklyn New York
    Like the "jazz-funk" BNs of the late 60's/70's?
     
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