Bowie Ryko Gold Discs, Etc.

Discussion in 'Music Corner' started by njwiv, Feb 18, 2002.

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  1. Mal

    Mal Phorum Physicist

    Paul,

    I've managed to get all the ones I want off ebay - you can get them quite cheap if you look for long enough.....

    I'd even recommend the RCA "Fame & Fashion" compilation if you can find it. It says "Digitally Remastered", and I get the impression they didn't screw it up too much :p. I got two copies for about $5 each. In England you pay £50 (~ $70) for one of those!!
     
  2. Vivaldinization

    Vivaldinization Active Member

    Remember, though, that while Ryko actually had *access* to the Bowie material, all Zappa stuff was done FOR them. Thus, the Zappa AU20s have little in common procedurally with the Bowie Au20s.

    That said, I still maintain that the Ryko Bowies are perfectly adequate.

    -D
     
  3. Paul C.

    Paul C. Senior Member

    Location:
    Australia
    Point taken David. So is this Spencer Chrislu guy someone who works for the Zappa organisation? Would he be responsible for other Zappa transfers as found on the regular silver Ryko discs?

    I think the Zappa AU20s are a definite improvement over the regular versions - perhaps it's more to do with the process rather than who did the transfer.
     
  4. Vivaldinization

    Vivaldinization Active Member

    Spencer, unfortunately, no longer works for the ZFT (I think it might be symptomatic of how they treat the people who worked for them!) He came on relatively late, and did *not* do most of the CD transfers. IIRC, he *did* do Have I Offended Someone?, both Au20s, Everything is Healing Nicely, CPIII (or maybe that was Todd Yvega?), and the re-re-re-re-mastered Tinseltown Rebellion and You Are What You Is.

    All of which sound fantastic.

    -D
     
  5. Paul C.

    Paul C. Senior Member

    Location:
    Australia
    Thanks again David. You know I've often wondered who in the Zappa Family Trust would have decided to use the LP mix of "Apostrophe" for the AU20 version, and why that decision was made. Was it Spencer Chrislu who pushed for it, or someone in Ryko?

    Was it because they had this mix which was quite different, and thought it was an opportunity to make it available on gold CD while the regular CD mix was already available on silver CD? Or did they determine that the tapes with the LP mix sounded better, so were the logical ones to use for the AU20 process?

    I always felt that the CD remix versions of Apostrophe (ie. the one that also had Overnight Sensation on the same CD), and the subsequent standalone version) sounded rather thin. Close comparison of the current standard CD mix on silver disc and the gold CD reveals that the standard version has mild distortion on various spots throughout the disc, which is not present on the AU20 - whether this is tape-related, or transfer-related I do not know. On "Stinkfoot", when the cymbals kick in a couple of minutes into the song, they sound nice and crisp and clear on the AU20, but are much less so on the standard silver CD.

    I could go on, but I think the interesting and rather sad aspect to this is that a superior version was made available in gold, and then rather than take the opportunity to continue to provide the public with the better version, Ryko went back to the earlier CD transfer. Of course, we can't ignore the wishes of Mr Zappa himself, and perhaps he decreed that the original CD mix was the definitive one.

    I wonder if Mr Chrislu had anything to do with the AU20 version appearing on some pressings of the silver disc, after the gold version came out? Perhaps this went unnoticed for a while, until a ZFT or Ryko person found out and freaked. When I recently inquired about this with Ryko, the guy I communicated with via email had never heard of the silver AU20 swap, and said that only approved masters are used on their CDs..... he said he would keep an eye out for this anomaly - but from what I've learned elsewhere, the switcheroo has been reversed for a while.
     
  6. Mike

    Mike New Member

    Location:
    New Jersey
    Coming soon! :D
     
  7. Vivaldinization

    Vivaldinization Active Member

    I've always suspected that there's a more mundane reason. Being as the "CD Mix" is actually just a knockdown of the quad mix, it probably only exists as a digital thing currently. Thus, for a *real* remaster of the album (and not just the better-sampling-rate-possibly-better-copy-of-the-tape treatment that I suspect the regular disc got), the original album mix is probably the only thing anybody could think of. The fact that it provided a nice alternative to the CD mix was most likely considered, but not a primary concern.

    I tried to not be in this camp for a while, but I've unfortunately come to the conclusion that Gail Zappa is rather sue-happy. It would probably have been *easier* for Ryko to continue to use the Au20 masters for the regular CD as they were doing, but as Gail sued over something as ridiculous as the 200 Motels promotional campaign, I can easily see her getting upset over Ryko second-guessing the ZFT in this matter.

    Remember this, though: Frank was beginning to second-guess *himself* by the end of his life, as the restored Only Money and the actual sound quality IMPROVEMENTS on Have I Offended show. If he hadn't died so tragically, I'm willing to bet that Ryko's current crop of releases would be a hell of a lot more definitive.

    We actually *asked* Spencer about this (as when the silently-upgraded YAWYI and Tinseltown CDs were discovered, we wondered whether Spence/Ryko were silently swapping in new masters for some albums). The answer is that it was almost definately a mistake by all of those concerned, and the gold masters were never meant for the regular CDs.

    Zappa's catalogue is something that lends itself *really well* to a definitive treatment; the fact that precious few of his albums have the sort of completeness associated with them that they should have on CD is unfortunate.

    -D
     
  8. Krink

    Krink Forum Resident

    Greetings....
    I am a big Bowie fan, And I have a copy of Ziggy on CD, by EMI, rematered at Abeey Road studios from 1999, made in Canada. Excellent!!! I don't like most Cd remasters other than DCC, and a few MFSL. If you can find it...check it out.

    Quick question...
    Are those Rhino remasters any good? I think they use the term Rhino-Vision or something like that on the discs. Is it hit or miss, or are they consistantly good or bad?

    Thx.

    Ray
     
  9. Mal

    Mal Phorum Physicist

    Ray,

    I think that your Canadian EMI disc uses the same mastering as the Virgin US CDs. In the UK they were released on EMI as well.

    If they are the same it will say something about Peter Mew and Sonic Solutions or NoNoise in the liner notes.....
     
  10. Matt

    Matt New Member

    Location:
    Illinois
    They don't always mention NoNoise or Sonic Solutions. Look at the Bowie Best Of's that preceded the Virgin releases: Peter Mew is credited as the mastering engineer, but no notice about NoNoise. The trademark Mewtilation is there, though, that sterile, pumped up, NoNoised sound.

    As for the Rhinophonic sound, I think that's supposed to be a joke of sorts, just giving the mastering some sort of brand name the way MFSL uses the terms Gain System and Ultradisc. (and for those Rhino haters out there, I'm pretty sure when I say joke, you're thinking, "yes, the mastering is a joke" :D )
     
  11. joachim.ritter

    joachim.ritter Senior Member

    Hi njwiv,

    any news regarding the box sets?

    Regards,

    Joachim
     
  12. njwiv

    njwiv Senior Member Thread Starter

    Location:
    Atlanta, GA
    Re: Re: Bowie Ryko Gold Discs, Etc.

    Nothing yet, Joachim. Don't know what's going on, but I'll let the group know as soon as I hear anything. I fear that he may be considering putting it on eBay. Grrrr!

    Jay
     
  13. njwiv

    njwiv Senior Member Thread Starter

    Location:
    Atlanta, GA
    Guys,

    I tried to e-mail or get everyone interested the information via Private Message. Couldn't do so for David Goodwin. Basically, I now have the dealer's e-mail address. He decided, rather than quoting a price, to solicit offers from anyone interested. Contact me if you'd like that information. I feel somewhat like I've been used as a shill. Sorry to all!

    Jay
     
  14. lil.fred

    lil.fred Señor Sock

    Location:
    The East Bay
    According to Simply Vinyl, their new series of Bowie LPs is mastered from the original analog tapes. I know that company is hit-and-miss, but let's hope for a hit this time! :) Anyone heard them -- I think the first 3 records are available now?
     
  15. Gary

    Gary Nauga Gort! Staff

    Location:
    Toronto
    Laugh-Out-Loud! :D

    But Steve, they'd have to find someone with TALENT to remaster them without the Troisi Series 200 Equalizer, the Troisi Digital Companion TM 20 bit A/D Converter, and all those things..... ;)
     
  16. Dave

    Dave Esoteric Audio Research Specialist™

    Location:
    B.C.
    All that I've got say about this David Bowie search for the best cd versions is: Listen to what Steve has said....he's right!

    I've heard the Rhinos, I've heard the Rykos, I've heard the Au20s, and I've heard the EMIs and the RCAs. Every single one of them doesn't even hold a candle to the RCA versions IMHO. All were noise processed, in one form or another, except the RCAs.;)
     
  17. nashreed

    nashreed New Member

    Location:
    Tulsa, OK
    Veddy interesting...
    I have also always thought that the RCA Bowie CD's sounded good to me- very natural. The "Fame And Fashion" collection, in particular, has a very nice, full sound. The only Ryko Bowie I have is the "Sound And Vision" box, and when I listened to it all in one sitting, it just kept sounding worse and worse. I posted a year or so ago one another board my preference for the RCA Bowie's and I was nearly fitted for a straightjacket right there. At least I'm not insane...
    The Virgin Bowie's are loud and detailed, but I like the feeling of listening to a nice Dynaflex vinyl that I get from the RCA's.

    nashreed
     
  18. audiomixer

    audiomixer As Bald As The Beatles

    GENTLEMEN!!!

    I have to disagree with most of you!!!

    The RYKO Bowies sound great; transparent and not harsh...Especially the Gold Discs!!
    The Virgins sound like crap!!!

    SORRY!
     
  19. Uncle Al

    Uncle Al Senior Member

    Location:
    Long Island, NY
    Well, the only RCA Bowie I own is ChangesOne. The sound isn't spectacular, but there aren't a whole bunch of digital artifacts either. Truth be told, it sounds like a copy of an analog "greatest hits" master. one generation down from the original lp master. I always felt that "Diamond Dogs" sounded a little lacking on this set - but as I have no other frame of reference for this song, I concede it may have been mixed that way.

    I always liked the way Space Oddity sounded on this set. Lots of hiss, but a nice opened sound. Also - you can feel the deep notes at the end of the guitar solo.
     
  20. Mal

    Mal Phorum Physicist

    Audiomixer,

    have you compared the Rykos (aluminium and AU20) to the RCA discs?

    If you are are saying that the Rykos (particularly the AU20s)sound better than the Virgin discs then I probably agree with you but the RCA discs make all the newer issues sound pretty bad to my ears.

    An obvious difference is that the RCA discs have a rich full sound. Listen to the vocals - on the RCA versions Bowie's voice sounds rich and warm (ie natural) whereas the Ryko and the Virgin discs have a much harder thinner sound on the vocals :(.
     
  21. Patrick M

    Patrick M Subgenius

    Location:
    US
    So...you don't like 20 bit A/D converters?
     
  22. Dave

    Dave Esoteric Audio Research Specialist™

    Location:
    B.C.
    You still haven't replied to Malc S's question yet so I'll surmise that you haven't done the same comparison testing that I've done.

    The best is the RCA Bowies, by a mile, then I'd say the Au20's (bass is thrusted too hard and sounds unnatural as well as the top end is way too bright.), next would be the Rhino compilation (waaaay too much compression), then the regular Ryko's (very flat and compressed with inadequate definition) and last and very much least the EMI/Virgins (no comment!). So ya see in some ways I agree with you (virgin sucks) but otherwise I simply don't.
    :D
     
  23. krabapple

    krabapple New Member

    Location:
    Washington DC
    Were they tape copies eq'd for vinyl, or straight tape copies of the masters?
     
  24. Dave

    Dave Esoteric Audio Research Specialist™

    Location:
    B.C.
    I'll jump in here: They're 2nd or 3rd generation copies of the masters.;)
     
  25. lukpac

    lukpac Senior Member

    Location:
    Milwaukee, WI
    That doesn't explain if they were flat or EQ'd copies.
     
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