Burning SACD iso's to DVD-R's - how is that even possible?

Discussion in 'Audio Hardware' started by C6H12O6, Dec 8, 2017.

  1. I 100 % agree with you. I have all my SACD's ripped to ISO's, then extracted the individual DSD files with ISO2DSD and stored on an external SSD which I have connected to a Sony UBP X-800 UHD BD that can play DSD files either stereo or multichannel. It's very convenient and I avoid wearing out the disc reading drive on my X-800 with Hybrid SACD's.
  2. vinylontubes

    vinylontubes Forum Resident

    Katy, TX
    The recommended software to burn SACD-r discs is ImgBurn. It works perfectly. You will need a player though. I have a hacked Pioneer. Older Oppos that haven't been upgraded in firmware also work. I think there are some old Denons that don't look for the watermark. But it's probably easier just to get JRiver or Foobar 2000 and a DSD DAC. I use a Shiit Loki. The old one, not the equalizer thingy.

    It works, because SACDs are actually just DVDs. They are just formatted differently. The entire idea of creating the PS3 ripping utility came about when it was leaked that the authoring of SACDs where checked by making copies onto plain old DVD-R discs. The equipment in the authoring labs don't check for watermarks, so it was feasible. I bought a PS3 to make backups of my SACDs, myself and the Pioneer to play my legal backups.

    Here's the list of compatible players:
    Confirmed to play
    • Cambridge Audio Azur 650BD
    • Cambridge Audio Azur 751BD
    • Denon DBP-1611UD
    • Denon DBP-2012UD
    • Denon DVD-2910
    • Denon DVD-3910
    • Denon DVD-5910
    • Denon DVD-A11
    • Denon DVD-A1XVA
    • Marantz DV7600
    • Marantz UD5005
    • NAD M5
    • NAD M55
    • NAD T585
    • OPPO BDP-80
    • OPPO BDP-83
    • OPPO BDP-83SE
    • OPPO BDP-93
    • OPPO BDP-95
    • Pioneer BDP-140
    • Pioneer BDP-150
    • Pioneer BDP-450 (added on 12/19/2015)
    • Sony BDP-S180
    • Sony BDP-S370
    • Sony BDP-S370/BX37
    • Sony BDP-S380
    • Sony BDP-S470
    • Sony BDP-S480
    • Sony BDP-S570
    • Sony BDP-S580
    • Sony BDP-S780
    • Sony BDP-S870
    • Sony BDP-S970
    • Sony BDV-E870
    • Yamaha BD-S1067
    Confirmed to play after (custom) firmware update
    • BBK DV727S
    • Cambridge Audio DVD89
    • Harman Kardon DVD47
    • Marantz DV-7001
    • Onkyo DV-S502E
    • Oppo DV-970HD
    • Oppo DV-980H
    • Oppo DV-981HD
    • Philips DVP-5500S
    • Pioneer DV-575A
    • Pioneer DV-578A
    • Pioneer DV-585A
    • Pioneer DV-600AV
    • Pioneer DV-610AV
    • Pioneer DV-696AV
    • Pioneer DV-LX50
    • Samsung HD745
    • Samsung HD841
    • Samsung HD941
    • Samsung HD945
    • Samsung HD950
    • Yamaha DVD-S657
    • Yamaha DVD-S1700
    • Yamaha DVD-S1800
    • Yamaha DVD-S2700
    PhantomStranger likes this.
  3. Kal Rubinson

    Kal Rubinson Forum Resident

    A dsf or dff file contains DSD data. Whether it is "native" depends on provenance.
  4. Kal Rubinson

    Kal Rubinson Forum Resident

    JRiver and foobar will play them directly to a DSD-capable DAC.
  5. Call me crazy, but the SACD-Rs I've heard sound marginally better than the actual SACD. These are SACD-Rs I've made myself, directly from the original SACDs. I've wondered if the SACD security process introduces some additional jitter into the system.
  6. TarnishedEars

    TarnishedEars Forum Resident

    Seattle, WA
    Uh oh... Now you've done it. The bits is bits crowd is probably preparing your padded cell already. :laugh:
  7. Sevoflurane

    Sevoflurane Forum Resident

    True; bad choice of words by me there.
  8. Maggie

    Maggie funky but chic

    Toronto, Canada
    SACDs are just DVDs with a proprietary watermark. Single-layer SACDs are single-layer DVDs, dual-layer SACDs are dual-layer DVDs, etc. The physical manufacturing process is the same.

    It is true that DSD is a different type of data than PCM, but so is an MKV video file or a PDF document, and all of those can be put on a DVD disc (or, for that matter, a CD).

    Ultimately everything on an optical disc is encoded in binary pits and lands.
    C6H12O6 likes this.
  9. jfeldt

    jfeldt Forum Resident

    SF, CA, USA
    I thought the watermark was physical: that pit width for SACD was modulated as part of the Scarlet book specification. That makes them physically different than standard DVDs.
  10. TarnishedEars

    TarnishedEars Forum Resident

    Seattle, WA
    If these specifications do differ as you claim, then they must differ in such a way which is small enough that it doesn't make much difference to reading the pits. Because I can confirm that SACD-Rs (made from DVD-Rs) do indeed play and are recognized as SACDs on the handful of players which will play them. My understanding was that the big difference is that these players had a bug which simply disregarded the watermark, and so were/are able play these disks without it. But my understanding on this topic is not very deep, so I could easily be wrong about this.
  11. Maggie

    Maggie funky but chic

    Toronto, Canada
    Not all SACDs used pit modulation IIRC, but that's beside the point: since the pits are etched into a blank substrate, there is nothing preventing a DVD (or for that matter blank DVD-R) substrate being used for SACD recording with modulated pits. The substrates are the same.
  12. jfeldt

    jfeldt Forum Resident

    SF, CA, USA
    If it is beside the point, then why do only some SACD players play DVD-R burned with the same data instead of all of them? Do you have any information on what it could be other than the pit width modulation? Are there any DVD burners that can burn with modulated pit widths? Since I don't think there are any, this is a key difference, just in case that is useful to anyone.
  13. Maggie

    Maggie funky but chic

    Toronto, Canada
    I don't know the answer, but I assume it is a software issue on the burner end that would enable or disable a modulated signal. Physically, all DVD burners should be capable.

    As to why some players resist the discs, I don't know. I'm just saying that the substrate is the same and the signal itself is not different in its encoding principles to any other data.

    It is a bit like original PlayStation CDs and their "wobble." They were still CDs.
  14. jojopuppyfish

    jojopuppyfish Senior Member

    thanks for this thread. I didn't realize my player reads Sacd-R.
    There's a whole new world out there
  15. shirtandtie

    shirtandtie Forum Resident

    I just hooked my cheap $50 Samsung BluRay player up to my Oppo 105 via HDMI so I can get around the Oppo firmware issue that prevents playback of SACD-R. Works beautifully! I was playing converted .iso files from an external drive and still do, but now gapless playback is restored. :righton:
  16. dav1129

    dav1129 New Member

    I haven't noticed how old these posts are but I was searching for a guide on how to burn an SACD ISO to a DVD-R. I've found a few references but most say that burning an SACD is not possible. But like you I think it must be because I know I have done once. Only problem so long ago I can't remember how. But I do have a DIY SACD which I burnt from an ISO which registers an does play on a Denon DBP3313 as a SACD.

    Could you or anyone who knows perhaps remind how ? Thanks
  17. It's not that difficult once you have ripped the SACD to an ISO file.

    A long-running thread on SACD ripping:

    Ripping SACDs the right way

    A SACD ISO can be burned on a DVD-R with ImgBurn (a freeware program) without any problems.

    SACD engineers: here's how to make an SACD-R for home testing BEFORE glass mastering! - Gearslutz Pro Audio Community
    Mooserfan and TarnishedEars like this.
  18. quicksrt

    quicksrt Senior Member

    City of Angels
    What model if I may ask is the Samsung SACD-R reader / player?
  19. dav1129

    dav1129 New Member

    Thanks. I am sure this has become repetitious for those who know. But I have tried any number of programs to burn to a DVD-R. From PowerISO, ISORecoder, Native Windows 10 burning to and including Nero Buring ROM. But every attempt fails and end with one error message or another. The most common I think has to do with the software/device not being able to determine the maximum speed. I have now idea for the media I am using - which are generic printable DVD-Rs which I got on eBay bt con't remember what speed and I have no idea what speed the burner in my ThinkPad should be writing at.

    What should I do?
  20. Literally follow what I suggested. Download ImgBurn, a free burning program. Google it. The brand of DVD-R does not matter. Use ImgBurn to burn your SACD ISO file to the DVD-R. Boom, there you have a SACD-R. There is a way to do it with Nero, but I have never burned any SACDs with it.

    Always burn at the slowest available speed on your computer's drive. In my and most other's experience, that lowers the error rate of the burned copy.
    jhm likes this.
  21. anorak2

    anorak2 Forum Resident

    Berlin, Germany
    Two gotchas I can think of:

    1. Ripping the SACD. Apparently it's physically a DVD but with special encoding that prevents ripping, so there can be no such thing as an SACD ISO file. Since SACDs are hybrids with red book CD, any such attempts will likely only rip the CD part. SACD can only be played with dedicated hardware that usually comes with its own DAC and no digital out, so even accessing the bitstream is difficult or even impossible.

    2. However there are some DSD files out there, and once you obtain one of those through whatever means, they can be converted losslessly to PCM and back using appropriate software, Apparently sox has that option.
  22. quicksrt

    quicksrt Senior Member

    City of Angels
    I guess you've been out of the loop for a while. It has long been known that certain older PlayStation models will in fact rip SACDs, but other Pioneers and Oppos have now been revealed to be SACD rippers of choice as well. The list is growing so stay tuned.
    PhantomStranger and scobb like this.
  23. anorak2

    anorak2 Forum Resident

    Berlin, Germany
    That may well be the case :D

    And what is the result of that ripping? An ISO file, or a datastream?
  24. quicksrt

    quicksrt Senior Member

    City of Angels
    A real ISO file. That is the reason the files can be read as SACDs under the right circumstance.
    anorak2 likes this.
  25. SamS

    SamS Forum Legend

    The (proper) PS3 can rip SACDs to a DSF or DFF data file, as well as an ISO.

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