Burning SACD iso's to DVD-R's - how is that even possible?

Discussion in 'Audio Hardware' started by C6H12O6, Dec 8, 2017.

  1. Kal Rubinson

    Kal Rubinson Forum Resident

    In effect, yes but not really. One can rip only the ISO from the SACD in the PS3 or other machines (add Sony to the list) and the extraction of the DSF/DFF files is entirely a function of the software on your PC/Mac.
  2. SamS

    SamS Forum Legend

    Older versions (before v36) of SACD ripper pkg give you the option to cycle through output format option on the PS3 GUI: ISO -> stereo DSDIFF -> stereo DSF -> multichannel DSDIFF -> etc, back to ISO. I guess I've been using an older version, as I didn't even realized they deprecated the software to only output ISO.
  3. TarnishedEars

    TarnishedEars Forum Resident

    Seattle, WA
    They did this to save your PS3's precious CPU cycles from wasting time converting the output into different formats when this process can be so much more easily (and quickly) off-loaded onto your PC. This makes ripping faster, and it saves unnecessary wear and tear on an ancient PS3.
    SamS likes this.
  4. jhm

    jhm Forum Resident

    I concur. I've never had problem burning an SACD .iso with ImgBurn. You just launch it, select "Write Image File to Disc" and then you're pretty much set.

    Also, the freeware of isotodsd (gui) is your friend for converting SACD .ISO files to DSD or DSF for playback on many devices. It's also good for extracting multichannel tracks for folding down to 2.0, which I often have to do when the stereo layer is highly compressed but the surround layer isn't (I'm looking at you Buddy Guy's DJ Play My Blues SACD).
  5. TarnishedEars

    TarnishedEars Forum Resident

    Seattle, WA
    Question for you guys: Do both the Oppo 103 and the 103D work for ripping? Or is it only the non-Darbee versions which work?
    Last edited: Jul 9, 2018
  6. SamS

    SamS Forum Legend

    They are the same in regards to ripping.
    TarnishedEars likes this.
  7. Sevoflurane

    Sevoflurane Forum Resident

    103D works fine for me.
    TarnishedEars likes this.
  8. wolfram

    wolfram Slave to the rhythm

    Berlin, Germany
    I'm not sure what you are referring to, but I'm pretty sure that converting DSD to PCM is not lossless (and thus of course converting back to DSD neither). If the loss is audible is another question though.
    Kiko1974 likes this.
  9. It depends on the software you use to convert DSD to PCM. Many people here use free programs or pay programs like dBpoweramp which I use to rip red book CDs,but not to convert DSD to PCM as its results are far from being lossless.
    I'm lucky a friend of mine gave me for free a licence of Weiss Saracon, a professional sample rate/bit depth converter, this one can convert from DSD to PCM and from PCM to DSD,it's used at Sony's Super Audio Center where many SACD's are authored. You have to learn to use it well, set level boosting right (on DSD -6 dB equals 0 dB, but not all SACDs are mastered the same), set sample rate (I use 176.4 Khz) and bit depth (I used 24 bit), dither or not dither (I use TPDF, it doesn't harm) and three different noise shaping modes. If set up well the resulting 176.4/24 PCM files converted from DSD sound right like the DSD originals. Problem is Weiss Saracon is not cheap, if my friend hadn't given one license to me I'd definetely couldn't afford to buy it.
  10. anorak2

    anorak2 Forum Resident

    Berlin, Germany
    My thoughts are these: Given that DSD is basically the internal data stream of a delta-sigma ADC, and that delta-sigma ADCs and DACs can convert to and from PCM respectively (they are used in red book CD players for example), a one-to-one conversion from DSD to PCM and back must be possible. I haven't thought the theory through, because DSD is difficult to understand, but apparently someone has done it. And if it can be done in hardware, ist must be feasible in software. I found several webpages claiming that SOX can do it. Obviously, bit depth and sampling rate of the resulting PCM file must be adapted to the parameters of the DSD stream.
    Kiko1974 likes this.
  11. The Sony PS3 itself doesn't output pure DSD - it reads the DSD and outputs it via HDMI as hi-rez PCM just like the Weiss Saracon converter.
  12. You don't need a stand alone unit to convert DSD to PCM and back to DSD, there are several software based options. The Weiss Saracon converter I'm using is a software, I do my DSD to 176.4/24 PCM conversions on a Windows 10 laptop.
    DSD converted to 176.4/24 PCM using dither with Saracon is quite transparent, in fact, it's impossible to distinguish between the native DSD file and the Saracon converted 176.4/24 on my Pioneer SC LX-76 A/V receiver from 2012. I rip my SACDs, extract the DSD files from them and then convert them to FLAC 176.4/24 PCM with Saracon as the Pioneer receiver can play DSD via HDMI or USB but it internally converts it to PCM and it doesn't state its resolution. I may be using bad logic, but I think a 3000 $ conversion software may do a better job at converting DSD to PCM with several adjustment parameters than the DSD to PCM non adjustable conversion done internally by a 2400 $ A/V receiver. The conversion software itself costs more than the Pioneer receiver.
  13. Kal Rubinson

    Kal Rubinson Forum Resident

    I apologize for being so absolute. It has been a long while since I used a PS3 to rip directly to the USB stick/drive, so, yes, it can still do this. There are two reasons that I stopped doing this.
    1) The PS3 places a limit on the file-size that it can create on a directly-connected USB stick/drive and that many ISOs (as well as the occasional DSF) exceded that limit. The result is that it splits the file into two and one must manually concatenate the two parts.
    2) Having the PS3 extract the DSF/DFF files demands a lot of CPU work on the PS3 which extends the processing time and heats up the PS3. Given the relative rarity of suitable PS3s, their relative fragility and the difficulty of having them repaired to a suitable useful condition, it has always been the preferred procedure to rip to ISO and off-load file extraction to a generic PC/Mac. (P.S.: My two PS3s are no longer in use and are available for anyone who needs them.)

    My habit has been to rip to ISO and extract the MCH tracks for my playback library using Sonore's ISO2DSD GUI. I save the ISOs for back-up.
    jfeldt and PhantomStranger like this.
  14. Kal Rubinson

    Kal Rubinson Forum Resident

    Yes. Since I use JRiver as my playback engine, I have found that it can (1) play back ISOs directly, (2) convert ISOs to DSF and (3) convert DSF to PCM. The latter can be done on-the-fly for playback or off-line to store the files in PCM.
  15. The DSD to PCM conversion on JRiver is, how do I say it? Well, it lets you listen DSD files on PCM only devices, quality is another matter...
  16. Kal Rubinson

    Kal Rubinson Forum Resident

    What is your comment based on?
  17. DSD to PCM decimation is a well-understood mathematical problem and even junior programmers should be able to implement it fairly well. What's not so easy are constructing the various filters applied to this output and takes real skill, which is where different software implementations may introduce problems.
  18. dav1129

    dav1129 New Member

    Thanks for the Reply and suggestions. Unfortunately I got the same error message which other programs produced - power calibration error. Although the other once are probably fatal?

    Oh it seems I can't upload images here.
  19. Ecki

    Ecki Well-Known Member

    Did not read the full thread, sorry, but as a hint:

    I'm ripping SACD ISO Image via Pioneer BDP-170 (different model naming outside Europe afaik), storing the ISOs on a local HDD built-in an Android media box, playing via UAPP (Android) app (tunneling the Android driver system for bit perfect USB Transmission, but reading stereo part only) and feeding a digital stereo amp (Devialet 200, USB Input, restricted to DSD64). The Devialet can handle DSD as DoP only ... which is supported by UAPP app. DSDoverPCM does NOT convert the musical format, it does a repackaging of the digital data only, while the Devialet restores the original DSD data. There is a remote app for the Media box, so everything can be controlled via smartphone or tablet. Very comfortable and even cheap (apart from the amp).
  20. jhm

    jhm Forum Resident

    It may be an issue with your drive, then, not the software?!
  21. Testing, converting several DSD files with good sound quality that I know well, converting the same files with Saracon and JRiver and then listenning to them. The results tell why Saracon costs what it costs.
  22. Kal Rubinson

    Kal Rubinson Forum Resident

    I do only on-the-fly conversions and only when I choose to employ DSP-EQ but I will give Saracon another try.

    Unfortunately, using Saracon for such conversions will cost me many terabytes of storage space.
  23. darkmass

    darkmass Forum Resident

    These posts went up some time ago, but if Bruce Brown's analysis and observations still hold, there would be no point in using Saracon to convert to PCM at any higher rez than 88.2k/24 - that could be a bit of space saving assistance.

    Of course, whether that is still true or not could be the question. @Kiko1974 might be able to provide some insight. It looks like Bruce Brown still runs Puget Sound Studios and, with fortune, he might respond to a query.
    Kiko1974 likes this.
  24. Yes, I agree. It seems like Saracon filters all frequencies above 30/35 Khz to avoid DSD ultrasonic noise, so 88.2 Khz will cover more than that. There is a "if", that is that most D/A converters don't behave the same when changing sampling frecuencies and bit depth (more likely sampling frecuency) and the D/A converters on my Pioneer SC LX-76 and the outboard D/A converter I own, an inexpensive Topping D30 (great performer despite of the money it costs), which both use the same D/A IC (I don't remember now what was it) perform better at 176.4 than at 88.2 Khz. As data storage is cheap these days I don't mind converting at 176.4 even if it takes double the data space.
    darkmass likes this.
  25. Kenn

    Kenn New Member

    Sydney, Australia

    Can I ask what software do you use? To burn the iso onto a DVD-R? Is the sound quality exactly the same as an original SACD?


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