Burning SACD iso's to DVD-R's - how is that even possible?

Discussion in 'Audio Hardware' started by C6H12O6, Dec 8, 2017.

  1. quicksrt

    quicksrt Senior Member

    Location:
    City of Angels
    An ISO is an image file that is authored. In this case an authored SACD image.

    I wish more SACD players could play these SACD-R discs burned to DVD-R media. I'm surprised that any of them can. But if some can, why can't all of them play these burned ISOs as well. Or why can there be a modification that opens up the player to accept theee?
     
  2. Yes, SACD-Rs will sound identical to a pressed SACD on the SACD players that can play them. In fact, I have a suspicion they actually sound slightly better depending on the DVD-R's jitter. I ended up preferring the SACD-R to the original SACD in some cases.
     
    Last edited: Aug 23, 2018
  3. SACD-Rs are not allowed when you license SACD in players. It was an accident that SACD-R capable players made it out in the wild. Apparently one of the newer multi-purpose chipsets in players that many SACD manufacturers used "forgot" to have this prohibition built in.

    Content owners have been very forceful with electronics manufacturers when it comes to easily playing files that are commonly traded in underground circles.
     
  4. Kenn

    Kenn New Member

    Location:
    Sydney, Australia
    Thanks guys. I’m going to use Kodak DVD-r or verbatim DVD-r media not sure if it will make any difference. The player I have is an oppo 93.
     
  5. quicksrt

    quicksrt Senior Member

    Location:
    City of Angels
    I know, and know why. But why not a mod. There must be a young kid somewhere who wants to work on that mod in his spare time, and go down a legend in the history of media hacks.
     
    jhm and shirtandtie like this.
  6. A hardware mod is not possible from my understanding. It has to do with the hard-coded software instructions in the chipset used to decode SACD playback. The engineers behind designing SACD knew what they were doing. The mission was to prevent a repeat of the situation that happened with redbook audio on CD, where a child could digitally rip the music in perfect quality. The entire SACD format was designed to block the possibility of digital copying from ever happening. They knew plugging the analog hole would be tougher, but figured analog outputs were going to disappear at some point.

    It's also why the SACD format had virtually no exposure on computer systems before the Sony PS3 came out. That was consciously done to prevent the format getting hacked. The format only got hacked once hackers figured out many of its protocols by tinkering with the PS3's linux system.

    The SACD designers' paranoia with security likely hurt the format's overall market reach. I have no doubt the format would have grown bigger with tools to easily rip them.
     
    jhm likes this.
  7. TarnishedEars

    TarnishedEars Forum Resident

    Location:
    Seattle, WA
    The Oppo 93 will only the disk if if has some pretty old firmware loaded. That feature was stripped from the 93, 95s, 103s and 105s at some point, if I am not mistaken.
     
  8. Kenn

    Kenn New Member

    Location:
    Sydney, Australia
    Yep, I have the old firmware. Going to give it a try today. Is IMGBURN the best software to burn onto a DVD-R for the SACD ISO?
     
  9. TarnishedEars

    TarnishedEars Forum Resident

    Location:
    Seattle, WA
    Yes, that will work.
     
  10. Kenn

    Kenn New Member

    Location:
    Sydney, Australia
    Thanks. Works perfectly :)

    I have an oppo 93, do you think setting to pcm or dsd is better?

    My avr is a pioneer sc-05. I tried both not sure if I could tell? When I select dsd on the oppo my avr lights up with SACD.
     
  11. vinylontubes

    vinylontubes Forum Resident

    Location:
    Katy, TX
    IMG Burn was confirmed to work a long time ago. It's what I use. Others were found to not work. I'm not suggesting others won't work, just stating that IMG Burn does.

    The mods to existing are requested is a thing. This is in the form of firmware updates. I have Pioneer universal players that needed a firmware update to get it to work with SACD-r discs. Mind you, this just by-passed the watermark search. Early universal players sometimes didn't look for the watermark as SACD wasn't supposed to be ripped. Oppo intentionally didn't include the watermark check. But I think Sony coerced them to include it in firmware upgrades. I'm thinking they wouldn't sell them DSD chips unless they did. My Pioneer is only firmware updated with a USB stick, so there isn't much Sony could do about forcing the update, and by then Pioneer had gotten out of the universal player business. Current firmware now will check to ensure watermark verification is on any update. This is why mods to current players and those after a specific date can't be modded. The same thing happen with PS3s. If you went passed something like 1.34, your PS3 was unable to rip SACDs.
     
  12. TarnishedEars

    TarnishedEars Forum Resident

    Location:
    Seattle, WA
    DSD. The only difference that you are likely to hear on that machine is how long the ambience trails-on for.
     
  13. Kenn

    Kenn New Member

    Location:
    Sydney, Australia
    Thanks. Will leave it as dsd on the oppo :)
    Now to find some good sacd’s? Any recommendations? I’m not into hard rock :)
     
  14. Kenn

    Kenn New Member

    Location:
    Sydney, Australia
    Hi all,

    Sorry another thing, on my pioneer avr it lights up SACD but has on top of that in small writing : DSD->PCM

    Is this what I want? Or is that normal ?
     
    Kiko1974 likes this.
  15. jhm

    jhm Forum Resident

    That likely means that your receiver can't handle native DSD and converts it to PCM on the fly. You'd want to check in the manual. IF that's the case, you may want to set the Oppo to output to PCM if you feel it has a better DAC than your receiver does.
     
  16. Bingo Bongo

    Bingo Bongo No music, no Life

    But can you burn a DVD-R to SACD??? :p
     
  17. TarnishedEars

    TarnishedEars Forum Resident

    Location:
    Seattle, WA
    Without having a better idea of your tastes, its hard to know where to start. Also, are you interested in 5.1 or in two channel?

    FWIW: This is the most up to date SACD and Bluray Audio reference that I know of:
    HRAudio.net - Music

    It's not completely comprehensive, but it comes pretty close. I think that I only own about 4 disks which are not listed here. It also tends to lag behind for several months on new titles which delay their listings on Amazon. But it is still the best reference that I know of.

    It allows you to search many different ways. But the search engine does not tolerate spelling errors, so it works better when you type less.
     
    Last edited: Aug 26, 2018
  18. We've had a lot of SACD recommendation threads. Run a search for SACD on this forum and you'll find many suggestions.
     
  19. Kenn

    Kenn New Member

    Location:
    Sydney, Australia
    Thanks guys. I will check my manual for the avr. Maybe 5.1 sacd would be my preference. For 2 channel I just use normal cds on my NAD cdp. Unless 2 Channel sacd is noticeably better than a normal audio CD?
     
  20. TarnishedEars

    TarnishedEars Forum Resident

    Location:
    Seattle, WA
    Two channel SACDs can be better than redbook CDs. But there are a lot of variables here, not the least of which is the quality of the associated equipment, and the quality of the redbook player to which you are comparing it to, not to mention how critical of a listener you are.

    On some systems SACDs can sound noticeably better. And on other systems, they don't. So who knows how these factors will play-out on your system. The only way to know is to try it for yourself.
     
  21. Kenn

    Kenn New Member

    Location:
    Sydney, Australia
    Thanks. That makes sense. I had a look in my pioneer sc-05 manual but could not find info on the DSD. If it supports it or it will just convert to pcm on the fly....

    Found something in manual:

    Digital format indicators
    Light when a signal encoded in the corresponding format is detected (DSDPCM lights during DSD (Digital Stream Direct) to PCM conversion with SACDs).

    This means it converts to pcm?

    If so I will try and compare the oppo pcm conversion vs my avr
     
    Last edited: Aug 26, 2018
  22. Kenn

    Kenn New Member

    Location:
    Sydney, Australia
    Forgot to add: My setup is as follows: Very modest setup:

    Pioneer SC-05 AVR
    B&W 601S3 Front Mains
    B&W LCR600 Center speaker
    B&W M1 Satellites for rear
    B&W PV1 Subwoofer
    NAD C521i CDP
    Oppo 93

    Thanks,
    K.
     
  23. Kiko1974

    Kiko1974 Forum Resident

    I have a Pioneer SC LX-76 from 2012, sold in the US with the Elite badge and it states the same whileplaying SACD or DSD files, DSD -> PCM but don't let them fool you, my AVR wasn't cheap back in the day, it only had one model on the premium range on top of it, and it did the same with DSD, convert it to PCM.
    A friend of mine bought a topof the range Pioneer A/V receiver and that DSD -> PCM is still there, it converts DSD to PCM even if you engage the Pure Direct mode. But most A/V receiver DO CONVERT DSD to PCM 'though they don't state it. Stuff like distance compensation/delay, bass management or room correction can't be done directly on DSD, these processing has to be done on the PCM domain.
    At least Pioneer has the decency to say what's doing with DSD signals once they get into their A/V receivers.
    Best way to play DSD on an A/V receiver IMO? get your SACD's ripped, extract the individual DSD files,either stereo or multichannel, and then convert them to PCM with a payed high quality sample rate/format conversion software like Weiss Saracon. I have an original licence I got for free from a friend, there's no way I can afford 3.500 $ on a piece of software, but once you learn how to configure it, DSD converted to 176.4/24 or 88.2/24 with Saracon sounds like a charm.
     
  24. Kenn

    Kenn New Member

    Location:
    Sydney, Australia
    Thanks, Probably can't afford that software :)

    I will play around with Oppo converting DSD to PCM vs my AVR. Chances are I probably can't tell the difference with my equipment?
     
  25. We call those bad systems.:laugh:

    I used the Pioneer SC-05 AVR's newer brother in my movie home theater for several years. It should be plenty decent to hear SACD's benefits if everything is properly set up. While converting DSD to PCM isn't ideal, the differences are marginal on mid-level sound systems.
     

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