Buying a COMPLETE Tube Amp System for Living Room

Discussion in 'Audio Hardware' started by XUR, Jun 26, 2019.

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  1. spartree

    spartree Forum Resident

    Location:
    Canada
    User @Erocka2000 was/is using an Acoustic Plan Phonomaster SE phono stage with his Line Magnetic 518ia and Audio Note AN-E/SPe HE speakers + Auditorium 23 cables. Perhaps he can comment on the pairing.
     
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  2. bajaed

    bajaed Forum Resident

    Location:
    USA
    Agree wholeheartedly on the preamp. An "integrated" amplifier means it integrates an amplifier and a PREAMPLIFIER together. You have a preamplifier in the LM. You don't need 2 preamplifiers.

    99.999% of people who have an integrated don't try to add a second preamp. It's kind of a stunt for advanced tweakers who have spent proper money on all the other components and want to mess around with it to see if it changes anything. It could very well make your system sound worse.

    A good phono stage is critical for your system.
     
    Last edited: Jul 6, 2019
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  3. james

    james Summon The Queen

    Location:
    Annapolis
    I disagree with the people saying that you don’t need a preamp. Sure you don’t *need* one, but the amplifier section of the 518 is good enough to warrant looking at preamps, especially if one is trying to add phono capability. The 518 as an integrated is probably as good as one would ever need, but it’s the power section that’s special. In fact, at the used price, where can you find a SET tube power amp that’s in the same performance ballpark anywhere near that price?

    I ran a Mytek Brooklyn as a preamp into the 518 with great results, particularly from the phono stage. I always wondered what a lower end Shindo preamp would sound like with the 518.

    And that’s the nice thing about it: it gives you a real, legit upgrade path.

    What would sound better:

    - a 2-3k dollar preamp with a good built in phono stage into the 518

    Or

    - a 2-3k dollar phono preamp straight into the 518

    I don’t know the answer to that
     
  4. bajaed

    bajaed Forum Resident

    Location:
    USA
    However he has a good but not outrageous budget. And he is a beginner. Get a real good phono stage now and save the experimenting with a preamp into an integrated for later IF he wants to mess with it. He could sell a good quality phono amp later to trade for a preamp w phono. Personally, there are other upgrade paths I would take before running a preamp into a very good integrated.
     
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  5. Lonson

    Lonson I'm in the kitchen with the Tombstone Blues

    Depending on your cartridge it would be a great mach as is, or with a step up transformer as well.
     
  6. SandAndGlass

    SandAndGlass Twilight Forum Resident

    AN speakers, though I have never heard them might be the ticket. No reason not to pay a visit to @Warren Jarrett. I would check out their regular hemp drivers and their high efficiency speakers. With the LM 518iA's 22-Watts, the AN's regular efficiency speakers should surfice.

    As Bayou Tiger and others have said...

    Don't spread yourself too thin by allocating your budget to more things than are necessary right now. Such as...

    Cables are the last thing that you add to your system. If you buy cables other than copper wire from someone like Blue Jean Cables, you are buying something "audiophile" because they alter the sound signature in a way that ordinary copper wire does not.

    If you do buy esoteric cables, they are to fine tune components that are not a perfect match in your system. If you components are already a excellent match, then you have no need to spend money on expensive cables. If they are not, then there is plenty of time to do that down the road.

    Don't spend money on a preamplifier, at this point! If you don't have a preamplifier, then there are less interconnect cables to buy and frankly, you have no need for a preamp right now, because you have one already built in.

    It is not only Line Magnetic, bugt just about all of the makers of power amplifiers, who offer an integrated version of that amplifier, have fairly simple preamp circuits added to the power amp circuit. Take Rogue Audio and their original Cronus Magnum integrated, the Cronus is only their Atlas power amplifier, with a simple preamp section that has been added.

    That is the same for companies like PrimaLuna. Take for example their:

    PRIMALUNA PROLOGUE PREMIUM POWER AMPLIFIER

    Which retails for $2,199.

    [​IMG]

    They make an integrated version of the same amplifier and it only sells for $2,399, just $200 more.

    [​IMG]

    A 1st class preamplifier, one that will take you system up a notch or two is a several thousand dollar proposition. An inexpensive preamplifier will bring nothing to the table.

    The MOST IMPORTANT thing that you can do now, is to spend your money to buy the very best set of speakers that you can afford, and you are going to need a phono preamplifier.

    You have a world class SET power amplifier with the 518iA and you are going to need the very best speakers you can get in order to make it shine the way it is capable of.

    Put ALL of your money into speakers. Other upgrades, you can address at a later date.

    Speakers are going to be a challenge at this point. It is not easy to find speakers that are relatively sensitive and sound goot at the same time.

    Here are some things to consider:

    Zu speakers, people either love them or they hate them, there seems to be no middle ground with regard to Zu's. I do have a pair on the Omen Definitions, MK1 in the warehouse, with the original boxes, if you are interested in them, that I would sell for $2k (through the forum classified's), including PayPay fees and shipping (which I estimate will be somewhere in the $300 price range). Zu offers upgrades to their original driver's. you can upgrade the tweeter and/or the 10" drivers through their driver exchange program, that will give you the newest driver's. I would definitely upgrade the tweeter and cap.

    The Tritons, I can not comment on, neither can I comment on the Omega's.

    Devore Orangutan's, which I have not heard either are a possibility that I myself would consider, but, they are stupid expensive and I think you would be better off with AN speakers form Warren.

    Klipsch. If you are going to go with Klipsch, their legacy products are probably your best bet. They are highly sensitive horn loaded speakers and would work fantastic with the 518iA. But... Here again, not everybody like the sound of horn loaded speakers. While I happen to, I am not in the majority with that thinking.

    The Klipsch tower speakers are designed mostly for HT use and not stereo. Their legacy products are designed to operate off of tubes and low power amplifier's.

    You could go with a good used legacy pair of speaker's and save a lot of money. Cornwall's would be an affordable and excellent choice to go with your 518iA. If you have the room, a good used pair of K-Horns can often be found in the $3k or $4k price range. With legacy speakers, whether they be Klipsch or vintage Altec's, upgrade modifications, like crossover upgrades will greatly improve their performance.

    You can also buy the current versions of their legacy product line, just that they are a lot more expensive.

    Good score! I have published a quality DIY record cleaning solution, that you make from Triton X-100. A gallon of Triton concentrate runs about $35 from Amazon and will last you for a few thousand record cleanings. With 600 records, that will occupy your evenings for a while.

    The Decware ZP3 is an excellent tube phono preamplifier. I use it with my vintage Vinyl Nirvana restored Thorens TD-160 Super and Ortofon 2M Black.

    You will need to speak to Decware when they build it for you because the Rega turntables have their own unique method of grounding that is different than the conventional ground wire that everybody else uses.

    I tried hooking up my ZP3 to my RP6. It sounded excellent but try as I might, I could not get rid of the hum.

    [​IMG]

    So I ended up putting it back on the Thorens. You would have to advise Decware that your ZP3 would need to be grounded to be used with your Rega.

    As a temporary alternative, I acquired a Musical Fidelity X-LPS solid state phono preamp, from the forum member that I purchased the RP6 from.

    The X-LPS is the black tube in the right rear of the RP6. I have to say, the RP6 with the X-LPS sounded excellent. I must say, that Musical Fidelity SS phono preamps have earned my respect. They made many inexpensive SS phono preamps. The X-LPS was only a $300 unit when new. I wouldn't hesitate to recommend one for you to use, until you wanted to buy a more costly tube phono pre. The X-LPS sounded really nice with the Exact cartridge.

    [​IMG]
     
  7. gd0

    gd0 Looney Tunes and Merrie Melodies

    Location:
    Golden Gate
    Repeated as THE reason to skip an unnecessary preamp.

    OP is gonna have his hands full finding magic efficient speakers as it is. Never mind the insistence on floorstanders.

    Now, if there's an option to double the budget...
     
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  8. XUR

    XUR Well-Known Member Thread Starter

    Location:
    San Francisco
    Got it, thanks all for setting things straight, I will forego a preamp and just do a phono stage. To switch gears, if anyone has additional recommendations on a phono stage that will pair up well with the 518ia and Rega P6 w/ Exact 2, it’d be much appreciated.

    The speaker selection seems challenging and also pivotal... the Audio Note one does look enticing if I can make it fit my budget or possibly find one used.
     
  9. P300

    P300 Forum Resident

    There's Coincident Speaker Technologies Dynamites for sale on Audiogon for $1100. These are floorstanders that currently retail for $3000. Your amp should drive them well. That should leave you with enough dough to buy a decent phono stage and wire.
     
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  10. Richard Austen

    Richard Austen Forum Resident

    Location:
    Hong Kong
    FWIW I did a preamp shootout with the Line Magnetic 219IA comparing my standalone LM 219IA and then with a few different preamps added - the preamps make a staggering improvement. LM amps IMO are much much better as power amps - their preamps are so-so - it requires IMO a deeper understanding of audio equipment design.

    Anyway I tried a few preamps on the LM here

    Preamp shootout: Line Magnetic, Melody Audio, Rogue Audio...
     
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  11. BayouTiger

    BayouTiger Forum Resident

    Budget? Phono stages are all over the map. A couple that are good and very flexible would be the Phonomena or iPhono, but you want t try to listen to a few of them.
     
  12. IGD Positive

    IGD Positive Forum Resident

    Location:
    Inner groove
    To be fair, the cheapest preamp you used was $5000. That's basically the same as the list price of the LM integrated (and he paid well under half of that for his model). Let's let this guy figure out his budget for speakers and a phono stage for now and then we can convince him to spend more money down the line.
     
  13. bajaed

    bajaed Forum Resident

    Location:
    USA
    Exactly.
     
  14. bajaed

    bajaed Forum Resident

    Location:
    USA
    If it was me, I'd get a phono stage that allows you to upgrade to a moving coil cartridge later. One that accommodates both mm like you have now and has enough gain for mc. My Jolida JD9 has tons of settings and tubes. Lots of options. Get the best speakers you can afford then see how much you have left for a phono amp. My Jolida was $400 used. Upgrade your cart to something like a Hana SL down the road.
     
  15. saturdayboy

    saturdayboy Forum Resident

    Location:
    Chicago
    A lot of good advice in this post
     
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  16. Strat-Mangler

    Strat-Mangler Personal Survival Daily Record-Breaker

    Location:
    Toronto
    Dead-on. Not only that but posting conflicting info will only confuse him and is frankly a disservice to him. Let him get a great system set up first. After he's lived with it for a while and has a solid idea of what he'd want to change/add, *then* that info will come in handy.

    For now,... let's leave all of that aside and help him get the pieces he actually needs to make the best system he can get for the money.

    K? ;)
     
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  17. RH67

    RH67 Forum Resident

    Location:
    Simi Valley Ca.
  18. RH67

    RH67 Forum Resident

    Location:
    Simi Valley Ca.
    Regarding AN speakers they are very room dependent and while they work well in smaller rooms and close to walls in my experience in large rooms they can sound lifeless and dull. I have heard them sound great in the right room.
     
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  19. bajaed

    bajaed Forum Resident

    Location:
    USA
    Lounge is great for MM from all I have read. But you have to spend $270 for the step up if you ever want to use a MC. I would want that option for down the road. Seems like it could be included internally for a lot less than $270.
     
  20. SandAndGlass

    SandAndGlass Twilight Forum Resident

    I don't think it is so much a limitation of AN speaker's per-say, but any similar size speaker with an 8" driver in a monkey coffin size enclosure is going to get lost in a large room.
     
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  21. SandAndGlass

    SandAndGlass Twilight Forum Resident

    The OP's using an Exact MM cart, so that would not be an issue.

    Most MM phono preamps are going to either have an external step up transformer, or if internal, will be a OP amp in a lower price range.

    Quality MC step up transformers are not cheap. Audio Note has one in the $20k price range.

    Decware's, model ZMC
    [​IMG]
    MC Cartridge Step Up Device is $879.
     
  22. bajaed

    bajaed Forum Resident

    Location:
    USA
    True, but my point is I would buy a phono stage that allows for an upgrade to MC in the future without also spending an extra $300 for a step up.

    Actually for what he is spending on amp and speakers I might try to carve out $650 now to get a Hana SL. We are talking some nice gear and that mediocre Rega MM might be a weak link?
     
  23. bajaed

    bajaed Forum Resident

    Location:
    USA
    Guess mediocre may be harsh in regards to the Exact. Many on here really seem to like it.

    I would prefer to have a MC with his amp and table tho. I definitely would buy a phono pre with the ability to handle one.
     
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  24. SandAndGlass

    SandAndGlass Twilight Forum Resident

    Not everyone likes MC cartridges. The Exact is one of the Best quality MM carts on the market. It is like a cross between an Ortofon 2M Bronze and 2M Black.

    I have used all three. The Exact on a RP6 is a well matched cartridge for that TT. It is by no means a step down to run an Exact with the 518iA. I have done it and it sounds superb.

    Why spend the money on a MC transformer if you don't need one? I would rather spend the money with 100% of the price of the phono pre going to the MM circuit rather than diverting money from the MM circuit for a MC step up device, which is more often than not going to be an inexpensive OP amp circuit, if it is inside the box with the MM circuit.

    You are also commenting about an allegedly inferior MM cart and suggesting a MC cart in its place, then advocating buying a less expensive step up circuit than a quality external step up transformer. This is false economics.

    These step up transformers cost money for a good reason, they are completely passive devices used only to step up voltage and quality step up transformers are not inexpensive.

    This is why the companies who are making the MM phono preamps in the first place are selling them as an option. Because they are a quality device that will be a good match for the MM phono preamp.
     
  25. bajaed

    bajaed Forum Resident

    Location:
    USA
    I am advocating a quality phono pre that can handle mc as well as mm. Flexibility and quality are available for a good price. My Jolida JD9 is a good one and can handle just about any cart out there. Available used for about the same as a new Lounge.

    Others in the +/- $500 range can as well. Lounge is great but not the only choice.
     
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