Discussion in 'Audio Hardware' started by dennis1077, Jan 5, 2010.
Make sure its Steve's version!
If you're willing to go used, this is a very good deal. Probably won't stay unsold for long... :
It doesn't cost much more than the Pro-Ject, but is a better package, especially considering the arm's quality. If you find the cartridge included here a bit bright (as I've read they can be), it can always be sold and changed for something else in the future. It's surely better than the cartridge included with the Pro-Ject from the factory.
they're not. but if it came down to choosing one or the other, I know which one I'd go for
I disagree. The sound quality of the Rega/Pro-ject/Music Hall tables is a step up from the Audio-Technica table
true. it's really up to the OP to decide those variables for himself. what might be a risk/hassle/headache for one person is none of the above for the next. the OP has a total of three 7" 45RPM's in his collection. I can't see the speed change thing being too much of an issue
that's a great deal. a P2 is big step up from the P1/Debut/2.1 that are in consideration. Dennis, don't rule out 2nd hand. that's where you really save money and get a great deal.
Oh man, you are definitely on the right path!
Have you actually compared all of these side by side?
Have you? This is part of the problem with these threads is that these days, nobody has heard everything. I have heard the stock Debut III, last year on the front end of a high end system Luxman integrated and Tannoy Dual Concentrics. It sounded surprisingly good driving multi thousand dollar speakers. I have not heard the AT, so I cannot say. It looks like a technics knockoff, and the fact that they include a builty in phono preamp makes me suspicious. With audio, every added feature means a compromise was made elsewhere.
Has anyone ever compared a Ferrari F50 to a 1975 orange Ford Pinto station wagon with optional rainbow sport stripe? Does anyone even need to?
No, but I'm not claiming one is better than the other.
You said they were probably about the same in sound quality. How is that any different from saying one is better than the other? Both you and the other guy are making claims without direct experience. The whole thing about the AT makes me curious though, as there is a local place that sells it, though I don't want to waste the guy's time as I have no intention of buying one of these.
But we're not talking about Ford Pintos vs. Ferrari F50s.
I have heard a lot of turntables, and based on this I wouldn't expect a whole lot of difference between the ones we're talking about. That's all I said.
I was not claiming that one or the other was a "step up", as the other post did.
Just to be clear, you are saying that you haven't heard any of these tables we are discussing. But but based on other turntables you have heard, you think these turntables should pretty much sound the same. Are you saying that you believe that most turntables pretty much sound the same?
At this price, and among these models, I wouldn't expect a whole lot of difference.
Yes. The tonearm on the Rega/ProJect/Music Halls is a better design. You could buy one of those tables with the standard cart and upgrade to a better cart and actually hear a benefit in the future. And the ProJect has an upgrade path.
What exactly makes it better?
I'm genuinely curious. I know a lot of Japanese tables seem to show a preference for S-shaped arms, which is what we see on the AT (it actually looks like a cheapened version of the Technics arm). I have to admit when I've compared straight to s-shaped, with the same cart, nothing stands out to me as a big change.
At the same time I know if you mismatch your tonearm and cart you can make a good turntable sound lousy.
I am not much of a technical guy, but I grew up with the sort of S shaped tonearm/DD tables you are talking about. It isn't just the shape, but the design and the tolerances. I used to own a basic JVC from the early 80s with a straight tonearm (and detachable headshell) and it was not any better than the average S shaped tonearm from that era.
I have also heard modern ProJect and Rega tonearms, and they sound much better than those basic vintage tables of 25 or 30 years ago. I already told you how I auditioned the stock Debut III with a high end Luxman/Tannoy system and found the system quite pleasing. I used to stop buy this place that sold high end audio, and from time to time, the owner had older tables that he had repaired or installed new carts on and was waiting for their owner to pick it up, so I heard a variety of tables in this context, so I was able to hear how much better even a basic ProJect sounded than a lot of these Pioneers and Technics (and others) in the same high end system.
In fact, the Rega arm that you find on the P2 and P3, admittedly not the tables we are discussing here are so good you will find them on $2000 or $3,000 tables. The ProJect tonearm on the Debut looks much like the one I have on my ProJect 1.2, and that table sound much better than the tables I remember from my youth.
That's tempting. I've bought used before in the world of guitar equipment. After a lifetime of dreaming about a decent guitar amp and STILL not having one, I concluded the only way I'd own an all tube Marshall head is if I bought it used.
I still have the head BUT it's not been without problems.......culminating with a blown transformer on stage (and a VERY hefty repair bill) in front of a crowded bar. Not sure if it had to do with being used but you gotta wonder if that would have happened with a newer amp.
So yea, I'd consider used, but I'm a bit weary.
There is, of course, and element of risk involved in buying used, which is why I would not recommend buying a TT off Audiogon for a complete newbie. I shy away from it myself.
Yea, I'm afraid I'm not much of a risk taker. I always seems to lose!
BTW-That link to the great jazz guitar performance was VERY cool.
Glad you liked it. A guitar player friend of mine told me Farlow's right hand work was just as impressive as his left hand.
I'm in agreement with you here. Generally, the only time I'd recommend a newbie buy a used turntable is when that table is being sold by a local dealer who can help with setup, maintenance etc. Leaping out on your own into the used market when you have no experience with turntables is a pretty big risk imo.
I might be more of a technical guy than MRT, but nowhere near as much as some folks on this forum.
With tonearms, factors that effect sound have to do with mass v. structural ridgity and the quality of bearings, if the arm's pivot uses bearings. My arm [a SME III, from the late 70's] uses a knife-edge bearing. The Well Tempered Arm uses nylon thread. Some arms use air-bearings. What you want in an arm is something that has low friction in all planes of motion and the ability to keep the stylus in the groove at constant correct angles in those planes. There's a close relation of a cartridge's relative compliance and ideal arm mass. Moving coil cartridges tend to have stiff suspensions/lower compliance. SME's next move in tonearm design was to make a higher mass straight arm. While it's certainly possible to make a really good sounding s-shaped tonearm, I'd favor straight arms for structural rigidity and potentially lower mass.
Saying that the arm of a Technics 1200 "Rattles" is an exaggeration, but it fairly describes the difference between a decent old-school design and a modern high-end design reaching for state-of-the art. Jeff Dorgay—Tonepub here at the forum—has an interesting article in his magazine of up-grading a Technics 1200. He said the biggest step-up in quality happened when he replaced the stock arm with a SME 309.
And at the price point of the AT, the chances are that it is not a really good sounding tonearm. Anything is possible, but not too likely.
I am not familiar with this particular seller, but I can say that each of my experiences with buying equipment listed on Audiogon - a preamp (used), a digital converter (used), and a set of old tubes (new old stock) - have all been positive. No issues...
A Rega turntable is a very simple device. There is not much to go wrong with it, as long as it is properly packed for shipping. If you purchase a used Rega from Audiogon, ask the seller to package the table properly. You can send them this link: http://www.sigsound.com/NU&DInfoPages/regapack.htm
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