Can an SET amp serve as a long-term main amp?

Discussion in 'Audio Hardware' started by albertoderoma, Mar 10, 2011.

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  1. albertoderoma

    albertoderoma Well-Known Member Thread Starter

    Location:
    Silicon Valley, CA
    Every time I've listened to SET systems, especially those based on the 300B tubes, I've found them to be intoxicatingly good, amazingly musical and smooth beyond belief.

    They seem to have the same effect on many people, but when you go and look at how many people have an SET-based main system, the numbers are very, very, small.

    I am thinking of going with a 300B SET amp to drive my Tannoy Sandringhams. Even though these Tannoys are not super efficient (90db) they are in a small room (11x14x10) and I listen at very moderate levels (rarely above 80-85dbs) - so I am not worried about having enough power.

    What I am worried about is getting tired rather quickly of the delicious, but admittedly different, sound of SETs. It's possible that, like a rich chocolate cake, a little goes a long way and you would not want to eat it every day.

    So I would love to hear from people who have used (or are using) an SET amp in their main system. I had a few people telling me they loved their SET, but eventually went back to more traditional push-pull design for better dynamics and fidelity. Is this the typical experience?

    Thanks in advance,

    Alberto

    PS Bonus shot of the Tannoy Sandringham:

    [​IMG]
     
  2. I had my Unison Research Simply 845 for almost 10 years as a main amp and have driven various speakers with it over the years. The SET is rated at 24W and it was able to drive the Wilson Sophias (rated 89db).

    For me there is something special about the sound of a great SET be it based on 300Bs or 845s (and maybe a few other tubes but I only have hands on experience with these two).
     
  3. PS: Answering your final question, I moved to tube driven pre-amp and mono blocks (275W) and as much as I love the sound of my SETs, there is a whole new level opening up with the added power.
     
  4. RWBadley

    RWBadley Not an Animal

    Location:
    Reno NV USA
    I have used a 300B SET the last 5 yrs. They are driving some beautiful vintage Altec 604 speakers. I have not tired of either the presentation or dynamics. I have had and heard other systems that do some things better, but as a whole I still love this system for it's character of just making 'music'

    Cheers
     
    Paully likes this.
  5. ktc1

    ktc1 New Member

    Location:
    Dundee, IL, USA
    I had a SET 45/2A3 amp and absolutely loved the sound. The only reason I sold it was often enough I wanted to play music louder and 2-3 watts just didn't cut it and although I'm ahppy with what I have, especially when I want to rock out, I still miss that magical sound.
     
    gfong likes this.
  6. Natt

    Natt Forum Resident

    Location:
    Acton, Canada
    Been running 300B SET for about 5yrs now, previously was using ECL86 or EL84 based push-pull amps. I'm using very efficient Lowthers, which mate very well with all these low power amps.
     
  7. Larry I

    Larry I Senior Member

    Location:
    Washington, D.C.
    I've been using a SET amp for a good six years now. As long as power is not an issue, there is no aspect where the amp comes up short in comparison to other forms of amps. The original poster compares the experience to eating a rich chocolate cake. That may be true, particularly of 300b-based SETs, but not of the whole class of SET amps. I find 300b amps, SET or pushpull tend to have a somewhat over ripe lower midrange/upper bass. This is not the case with 2a3 and 45-based SETS.

    To some extent, that kind of sound can be tempered by the choice of 300b tube. A friends set of KR 300bs sound tighter (less bloated) than other alternatives like the Western Electric 300b.
     
  8. TONEPUB

    TONEPUB Senior Member

    Location:
    Portland, Oregon
    I really enjoyed my journey down the SET path, but ultimately tired of it. Id suggest a Pass First watt F3 or F5. Just as smooth as the tube stuff, better bass, lower noise and 25wpc. If you need a little more warmth, add it in the preamp.
     
  9. Larry I

    Larry I Senior Member

    Location:
    Washington, D.C.
    Recently, I had a First Watt F2 in my system (borrowed from a friend). This is a very nice sounding solid state amp. It is smooth, and mostly free of the artificial "edge" or brittleness to the initial attack of notes that characterizes much solid state (and a whole lot of pushpull pentode tube amps too). In comparison with my SET amp, it did not quite develop the same kind of large, enveloping soundstage. Also, the notes did not seem like they were blooming out into space quite as naturally as with the SET amp.

    Still, the F2 is a very nice sounding amp, and certainly a whole lot more versatile and universally usefull than my SET amp (A WHOLE LOT cheaper too), which puts out only about 6 watts.

    For those seeking more power than a SET amp can deliver, output transformerless (OTL) amps should be looked at. These amps tend to be very fast, detailed and dynamic. They are sometimes less "refined" sounding, but more than anything, most speakers these days really need a kick in the *** to wake them up (not necessarily more power).
     
  10. TONEPUB

    TONEPUB Senior Member

    Location:
    Portland, Oregon
    OTL is fun too, but by eliminating the output transformer, the amp's sound is much more dependent on the impedance swings of the speaker. It's a case by case situations, some speakers sound awesome with OTL's and some will sound terrible....
     
  11. Scott in DC

    Scott in DC Forum Resident

    Location:
    Washington, DC
    OTLs

    Who makes OTL tube amps these days? I know of only Manley and SAP (small, Italian company).

    Scott
     
  12. JBryan

    JBryan Forum Resident

    Location:
    St Louis
    SET has a sound that can't be duplicated by other topologies, but then that can be said of each of the topologies. For those who've heard a decent SET amp properly setup, its a sublime experience - delicate, detailed and a presence that puts the vocalist or instruments in the room with you. But there are many drawbacks.

    I've heard my share of SET set ups and I have to say that more often than not, it was a work in progress. The sound was nice but far from optimized - a little hum here, a bit of hiss there, the speakers not quite able to match the sensitivity of the amp or a mismatch with the preamp. With SET, its a journey that requires a lot of forethought and ALL the components have to be carefully matched. Its a big learning curve and I would never recommend SET to a budding audio enthusiast.

    I've kept a SET-based set up as a main system and have used several amps over the years - 10Y, 45, 2A3, 300b, 845 even a SEOTL and settled on the 45 as my preference. I also realized early on that a 45 amp won't drive 15" woofers with enough authority for me so I split duties with the 45 on top (Oris horns w/AER drivers) and digital amps on the bottom (modified Klipschorn bass bin). I've strayed many times but only in a 2nd system - 100w OTL, 200w Push/Pull, 400w SS, 400w digital among others and all have their good points but none made me consider switching out my main system. Of course, I didn't spend nearly as much time putting together the 2nd system as the main one - just experimenting.
     
  13. Natt

    Natt Forum Resident

    Location:
    Acton, Canada
    If you're not going to finely match the speakers to the SET, I'd not go with a SET.
     
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  14. JBryan

    JBryan Forum Resident

    Location:
    St Louis
    Atma-Sphere, Joule Electra and Transcendent come to mind
     
  15. Wardsweb

    Wardsweb Audio Enthusiast

    Location:
    San Antonio, TX
    Why not have multiple systems or the ability to roll amps? I have SET, PP and SS systems. This allows me to better match the speakers to the amp. Each has it's own magic.
     
  16. JBryan

    JBryan Forum Resident

    Location:
    St Louis
    BTW Alberto, love the Tannoys!

    I have a pair of old Tannoy Windsors w/15" Golds and I've tried several SE amps with them - 45 (2w), EL84SE (8w) and EL34SE (10w). While not definitive, none seemed to drive the woofers well enough to suit me. I have a 40w tube amp in the system now but I still think they would improve with more power. I have them in a larger room with cathedral ceiling so YMMV but I just thought I'd pass that along.
     
  17. KT88

    KT88 Senior Member


    I agree with a lot of what some others here have said. I think that the SET sound is indeed very fun but it is also very limited in many areas. I like the 2A3 and 45 tube sound as do some others here. It's very smooth and really nothing much to fault that is there. It's what is missing that bothers most listeners after a while, when compared to other systems. You have a heads up on others by having the Tannoys though. They will suit many different amplifiers. You'll get a more soft and full, abeit colored sound with a low powered tube amp. You'll get a dynamic and full sound with most high powered amps of any type that have a good power supply to deliver bass control. Obviously they will sound different but the Tannoys are very forgiving of a decent quality amp and I ultimately like hearing them with more power rather than less. That siad, a 40w tube amp we had connected to our demos here sound amazing in the way that you hope for a tube amp to sound.

    For a longer term investment, a more powerful amp would be ideal. It can be a tube preamp/SS power amp combo or a tubed integrated amp, etc. Once you get to near the 50w mark, you've got pretty good headroom and bottom end control. Then it's just a matter of which particular amp that you like. Since you are not going to be driving the speakers super hard, you might be one of the few that do keep an SET amp for a long time, although I would not get a 2w - 5w range amp. In fact, it'd probably be a better bet to get a push-pull amp even if you do stick with a triode output. After listening to many tube amps through a lot of Tannoy speakers including the Prestige models, I like PP Pentode or UL types the best. You can still get a big, warm sound by choosing the amp and tubes for the job. Better yet, you don't lose too much transient speed and dynamics as with very low powered amps. I'd say a minimum amount of power is going to be 10-12wpc, even for low level listening.
    -Bill
     
  18. JBryan

    JBryan Forum Resident

    Location:
    St Louis
    I agree, when it comes to SET, get the best speakers you can and leave them be while you find the preamp/amp combo that best suits them. To me, this is the most critical match, especially if you want no upstream noise making its way to efficient speakers. Things get a bit more complicated if you're trying to have a TT in the system but I still feel that the amps must be able to drive the speakers comfortably and the rest of the system must match up with the amp(s).
     
  19. KT88

    KT88 Senior Member

    After having heard many Tannoys over the years with many different amps, I tend to like more power into them as well. The larger models are unique speakers in that they are quite efficient and yet they can also handle quite a bit of power. I've driven them with everything from a 2.5w SET amp to a 300W solid state amp. Something in the middle there is usually best. I have set-up a lot of hybrid systems, using a tube preamp and SS power amp and that is a very good match also. Something from 50-100w would work fine as long as the amps power supply isn't too soft. Some low powered amp have quite robust power supplies (and output transformers in the case of tube amps) and they do a great job with less power. I like to rock it out on occasion though, so that's what the added power does for me. If I was only listening to acoustic music, I could stick with 12-40w, no sweat. For my personal listening habits, I don't think I could live with 2-10 for any length of time.
    -Bill
     
  20. JBryan

    JBryan Forum Resident

    Location:
    St Louis
    True, a 2w SET amp will not power <100dB efficient speakers to +90dB SPL without some distortion and compression (unless you're in a very, very small room) while a 200w amp will do so without breaking a sweat. But there are things I discern with a 2w amp that I've never heard from a 200w SS or digital amp. The problem comes back to the speakers as there are very few available rated above 106dB and that's what's needed for a 2w amp to comfortably drive speakers above 90dB SPL with headroom to spare.

    But everybody has their own idea of what they want their system to sound like and luckily, there's a lot of good choices and a flavor for each taste. Its just a matter of priorities and compromises.
     
  21. Raylinds

    Raylinds Resident Lake Surfer

    Some have made some good points here. I have had a 300B SET for about five years and absolutely love it, but I have more efficient speakers than the OP. I have friends with Audio Research monster tube amps, Maggies, etc. and they do sound great, but I prefer the SET sound.

    A lot has to do with the type of music you mainly listen to. They are magic with acoustic instruments, jazz combos and vocals, but some would not want to crank AC DC or large orchestral pieces on them on a regular basis.

    However, my classic WHO, Led ZEP, and Black Sabbath sound great on mine. My SET puts out 10 watts, which is fairly powerful for a SET amp, however, and my listening room is fairly small. YMMV.
     
  22. Metralla

    Metralla Joined Jan 13, 2002

    Location:
    San Jose, CA
    I'v had my 300B based SETs for close to 10 years. Speakers are Coincident Super Eclipse, around 94 dB/w/m efficiency. Room is 26x13x8 (dimensions in feet).

    I live in an apartment complex, so I keep the volume reasonable.

    I don't think the BAT has been over half-way, so no problem with power. When I used the Ric Schultz modified XA777ES, it was even lower on the preamp, because the custom analogue stage was putting out 4v balanced.

    The only two amplifiers I really think about are the Lamm ML2.1 SETs (yes, there is one on Audiogon now) and the Allen Wright dpa300. The Lamms appeal because I would go for a more powerful SET (about 23w). The dpa300 is not a SET design, but a unique differential design using a pair of 300Bs - so about 16w. The nicest sounding amp I've ever heard, but with Allen having passed away, I'm not sure about VSE.

    Maybe a used Parasound JC1 as a back-up (everyone needs a backup amp).
     
  23. Lonson

    Lonson I'm in the kitchen with the Tombstone Blues

    This seems to be the crux of the matter to me. I lived with Decware SET amps for some time (which sound unlike other SET amps I'd heard, more like a solid state amp with the tube magic.) What happened in my case is I fell in love with the Decware line of Radial speakers, and I also was able to move my main system into my larger living room/dining room. They needed more power than the SETs could deliver. When Decware came out with the push-pull Torii amps that was the ticket for me. Had a similar family sound to the Decware SETs and also an intoxicating and addictive headroom and dynamics, and allowed the speakers to throw a huge image. I still have two of the SET amps, but I'm using the Torii in both systems. I don't know which I value more, the two different models of Radial speakers I have, or the two different Torii amps I have, the truth is that the combination of amp and speaker is just right for me.
     
  24. Larry I

    Larry I Senior Member

    Location:
    Washington, D.C.
    From my experience, rock music is NOT the hardest thing for either SET or pushpull tube amps to properly drive, as long as one is not talking about really high volume levels. I actually find that choral music shows up the power shortcoming of amps because problems can be heard at surprisingly low subjective volume levels. If you aren't cetain about your amp's capability, put on Rachmaninov's Vespers, for a workout. I think it's because of the extreme sensitivity of the human hearing to vocals that makes even small levels of distortion evident.

    As for shortcomings of SETs at the frequency extremes, this is particularly an issue if the amps have inadequate output transformers. Because of the simplicity of SET amps and the low power output not requiring an extremely robust power supply, these amps CAN be fairly low cost. But, the demand placed on the output transformer (high, constant current in the primary causing saturation issues) means that really good output transformers for such amps are MUCH more expensive than what would be required for an equivalent output pushpull amp.
     
  25. Faust3D

    Faust3D Sick of it all

    Location:
    NYC
    SAP is kinda gone. They were bought out by a large firm and do not make anything at this time. I have their speakers, SAP Trio, and love them.

    Very true SET amp, as a rule, needs easy to drive speakers with good efficiency and sensitivity as well as very stable resistance.

    Yeah, they make nice stuff, but OTL amps is so tricky to implement well.

    I am in the same boat. I have a tube 2W SEP and 20W PP amp. Sand SE amp, and two big PP sand amps. So much fun to play with all this stuff.

    LAMM SET amps are different and very well made, the engineering in these amps is truly unique as well. I am not a huge fan of 300B sound, too warm and forward for me, but good 2A3 amp can sound very good.

    In addition to SET amp SEP (Single Ended Pentode) amps can sound very good and "fix" some of that overly lush and warm sound some triodes can give you.

    To answer OPs question, if you carefully match all components in your system and get SET amp with sufficient power for your speakers I bet you can live with it for a long time. I think 300B will not be able to drive your 90dB speakers if you feed it material that has a lot of headroom, so it will ultimately be dependent on the music you listen to. If you listen to vocal jazz or chamber music, it will be fine. If you like to rock out or listen to a lot of very dynamic music, look for a SET with 20W-30W, this will give you a lot of headroom and punch that you will need. Art Audio makes nice amps, Jota for example, with 300blx tubes and EML 520, or even Jota HC with KR 52BX tubes. All of these are very pricey, but in the end you have a SET with balls. Consider a SEP amp, very good sound and lees $ as well.
     
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