Can good hardware (cartridge, phono pre-amp) improve the sound of sub-par vinyl masters/pressing

Discussion in 'Audio Hardware' started by defi_x, Jul 8, 2020.

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  1. defi_x

    defi_x Well-Known Member Thread Starter

    Location:
    Berlin, Germany
    Greetings.

    Since getting back into vinyl records, and with a better system this time, and a more thoughtful approach, I learned that there are records, and there are records, that different recording/master/pressing instances even of the same album can sound differently. I am really happy with the sound of Sam Records re-issues of Bobby Jaspar and 'Afternoon in Paris' by John Lewis and Sacha Distel, so am I with the sound of my copy of Monty Alexander's great Montreux live recording. Moving into a different territory, my copy of 'The Score' by The Fugees sounds great, as well as my copy of 'Dear Silence' by TV on the Radio.

    My The National records ('Alligator' and 'Boxer') on the other hand come off as flat, so does the recently acquired re-issue of 'Elegantly Wasted' by INXS. There's just no juice, no dynamics, no life to the songs. They sound better when played digitally through Tidal via my Topping D30 DAC on the same amp and speakers.

    So, I am curious. Is this something which, at least to a degree, can be improved with a better cartridge and phono pre-amplifier?

    Thank you.
     
  2. Buisfan

    Buisfan Forum Resident

    Location:
    amstelveen holland
    You can upgrade what you want but a bad record will always be a bad record.
    The most important is the stylus, renew it when sound degrades even on your best records.
     
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  3. Ontheone

    Ontheone Poorly Understood Member

    Location:
    Indianapolis
    Good hardware will more likely reveal the recording defects even more.
     
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  4. CMT

    CMT Forum Resident

    Location:
    Sebastopol, CA
    A better analog system is likely to simply give you greater insight into how bad the bad examples are. :)
     
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  5. Mad shadows

    Mad shadows Forum Resident

    Location:
    Karlskrona- Sweden
    I think it can. A good system is better at untangling a messy mix. Less distortion means that more of the music get through.

    It's strange which recordings benefit most from an upgrade. Music that you thought was a muddy mess suddenly becomes listenable. And it can also reveal flaws in what you tough were good recorded music.
     
    morinix, Leonthepro and defi_x like this.
  6. Schoolmaster Bones

    Schoolmaster Bones Poe's Lawyer

    Location:
    ‎The Midwest
    This sounds about right.

    I can say, in my case, that downgrading the stylus on my Thorens TD160 to a cheap conical was a good move, considering my collection and musical tastes.

    YMMV
     
    CMT likes this.
  7. Boltman92124

    Boltman92124 Go Padres!!

    Location:
    San Diego
    I made the mistake of buying too many classic rock re-issues when I first got back into LP's. Sure, some are great and the best sounding vinyl I own. But many of them are average to below average. I should have spent more time buying original pressings (used or mint) early on.
     
    VinylSoul likes this.
  8. patient_ot

    patient_ot Senior Member

    Location:
    USA
    Can't fix a badly recorded, badly mixed, badly mastered, or badly pressed record. Not possible. You may be able to use something like EQ or tone controls as a band-aid solution but you will never "fix" anything.

    Want good sound? It starts with good sounding records.

    Now, there are many artists and albums I enjoy that aren't exactly great sounding for one reason or another. I simply enjoy the music for what it is, notwithstanding all that.

    One thing I stopped doing is buying records that are cut and pressed in a half-assed way. I recommend you do that same. Research before buying. Try to figure out what source was used, who mastered the record, and what plant pressed it.

    Same deal with a lot of newer music. Much of it, IME, at least for the artists I like, has no advantage whatsoever on vinyl. I'm better off just getting the CD or buying a FLAC download.
     
    vinylfilmaholic likes this.
  9. defi_x

    defi_x Well-Known Member Thread Starter

    Location:
    Berlin, Germany
    Yes, this much I learned by now, and I try to do my best researching the record beforehand.

    I listened to The Libertines' self-titled album on vinyl this week. I have heard much about them, in part due to Pete Doherty's antics which hit the news every now and again, but somehow never got to listening to their stuff. The Discogs seller I was buying other record from had a few titles by the Libertines, so I thought, what the hell, why not. It's this garage rock revival thing, I think they actually tried pretty hard to make it sound like it's playing from the bottom of the tin trash bin. Could just as well listened to it digitally. Still, I do not regret having it in my collection, it's a good record.
     
    patient_ot likes this.
  10. Leonthepro

    Leonthepro Skeptically Optimistic

    Location:
    Sweden
    Yes, but a good mastering can do more than most gear upgrades.
     
  11. Leonthepro

    Leonthepro Skeptically Optimistic

    Location:
    Sweden
    Everyone always says different things about this, making such blanket statements says nothing really.
     
  12. missan

    missan Forum Resident

    Location:
    Stockholm
    I believe we can think of this subject this way: On the record there are a bunch of tones, good tones or bad tones; with a better vinyl front end all these tones will be presented more clearly. So all records benefit with better front end, but you might hear more clearly if an instument (or a voice) is e.g. slightly out of tune.
     
  13. Henrik_Swe

    Henrik_Swe Well-Known Member

    I did the same mistake when getting back into records. Some re-issues sound great, but too many pressings are flawed one way or another these days.

    I strongly recommend avoiding anything pressed by GZ Media. My experience is that most records pressed by GZ sound very flat, and are way too often warped, has lots of clicks and pops, to name a few flaws. Depending on what you buy, info about pressing plant can sometimes (often in my case) be found on Discogs.
     
  14. patient_ot

    patient_ot Senior Member

    Location:
    USA
    I have some GZ records that sound great, some pretty good, and some not so great.

    The trouble with GZ, is that even if they get the pressing 100% right, the mastering is often not the best.

    That is because most GZ clients will just send in digital files to GZ, rather than taking them to a really good mastering engineer to cut a lacquer first. The in-house DMM cutters at GZ have to keep things moving, so it's a very assembly line process with mixed results. Sometimes they make really dumb mistakes as well, such as cutting a record that was supposed to be in stereo in mono.
     
  15. Henrik_Swe

    Henrik_Swe Well-Known Member

    Yeah, this is is probably the biggest culprit imo, along with if the masters are of poor quality of course - no saving that. I have 2 friends that run labels, one does all his records at GZ, the other guy at Optimal. The difference is night and day most often. And the masters for GZ are not of poor quality in this case. In my experience 1 out of 5 sounds pretty good when pressed by GZ, probably the other way around with Optimal. I don't know which records you have that's made by GZ, but maybe they take other measures when it's a bigger run from an important client? The stuff I'm refering is usually more limited stuff, which I probably should have clarified. I can't remember what bigger run GZ records I have, I would have to look. Also not sure how much it matters which broker you go through, if not dealing directly with GZ.
     
  16. Drew769

    Drew769 Buyer of s*** I never knew I lacked

    Location:
    NJ
    Better equipment - cartridge, phone preamp and turntable - definitely will yield blacker backgrounds, less in the groove noise, and a better overall sound - all things considered equal. If a record is manufactured badly (non-fill, etc), however, there isn’t much that can be done about that.
     
  17. patient_ot

    patient_ot Senior Member

    Location:
    USA
    I have some major label stuff from GZ and some indie label stuff from GZ. I'm not sure there is any kind of hard and fast rule, it might come down to luck or whatever. In general any small customer is more likely to get the shaft vs. a big customer. If a plant screws up a run for small customer, they will probably tell that customer to eat the 500 copies after a certain point. If it's a major and 10,000 copies or more are being pressed, that's big money for the plant and they are more likely to be accommodating if test pressings or the first shipment of the run is off.

    Optimal can do good work when they want to but have had plenty of issues in the past with off-center and non-fill. Their in-house cutting engineers aren't the greatest either, though results may also depend on what kind of master is being sent in.

    With any plant the best sounding records are usually made from lacquers cut by an experienced and well-known engineer. Not cuts via assembly line DMM from Joe Schmo at the plant.
     
  18. Wayne Nielson

    Wayne Nielson Forum Resident

    Location:
    My House
    As others have said, it will expose the flaws, but at the same time make good recordings fun to listen to. I listened to Donald Fagen's Morph the Cat yesterday. That is like listening to the master tape.
     
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  19. TheVinylAddict

    TheVinylAddict Look what I found

    Location:
    AZ
    Oh, you mean like this:
     
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  20. Boltman92124

    Boltman92124 Go Padres!!

    Location:
    San Diego
    Right! The entire Cheap XMas box set (that includes Morph) is some of the best sound I have ever heard on vinyl. Superior to the CD's IMO.
     
  21. Leonthepro

    Leonthepro Skeptically Optimistic

    Location:
    Sweden
    No.
     
  22. Henrik_Swe

    Henrik_Swe Well-Known Member

    Definitely. But I assume that's more costly, hence not always an option for a limited run. But for major players, that's the way to go.
     
    patient_ot likes this.
  23. patient_ot

    patient_ot Senior Member

    Location:
    USA
    It does indeed cost more money. And since the Apollo/Transco fire happened expect to see more records done as in-house DMM rather than lacquer cuts.
     
  24. BPMC

    BPMC Forum Resident

    Location:
    Riverside, CA USA
    As several of the contributors have mentioned, high quality playback hardware will bring out the limitations of poor quality source material (similar to how advancements in consumer-grade audio equipment over the past couple decades has really revealed how badly some of our favorite songs from the 60's were actually produced).
     
  25. Davey

    Davey NP: CLARAGUILAR ~ Figura (2024)

    Location:
    SF Bay Area, USA
    A good system makes everything sound better, that's my experience. Of course, not everyone agrees on what makes a good system, but if it makes a lot of the music I love sound bad, it's obviously not a good system :)
     
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