Can I use 91% isopropyl alcohol to clean vinyl?

Discussion in 'Audio Hardware' started by Veech, Oct 4, 2021.

  1. Ingenieur

    Ingenieur Going with the flow...

    Location:
    PA
    The water in 91% should be USP, basically pure since it can be used as a topical antiseptic.


    91% IPA
    This is a first aid antiseptic. It is manufactured using only the following United States Pharmacopoeia (USP) grade ingredients:

    1. Isopropyl Alcohol (91%, v/v) in an aqueous solution
    2. Sterile distilled water or boiled cold water.
    The firm does not add other active or inactive ingredients.
     
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  2. pacvr

    pacvr Forum Resident

    Location:
    Maryland
    First - the record is not PVC, its technically PVCa - polyvinyl chloride acetate. Second, most of the chemical compatibility charts for PVC are for PVC pipe which is classified as Rigid PVC. There is also Flexible PVC which is PVC blended with lots (~10-40%) of plasticizer of which the record only has a very small amount <1%.

    Here is a PVC compatibility chart PVC.pdf (calpaclab.com) - Alcohols: Isopropyl is Excellent, but Alcohols: Ethyl (i.e. ethanol) is only Fair. This makes no sense since Ethanol as a solvent is weaker than IPA.

    This table for CPVC Chemical Resistance and Chemical Applications for CPVC Pipe and Fittings. (nrc.gov) says Alcohols C: Caution, further testing suggested; suspect with certain stress levels.

    This PVC chart - one of the better ones - PVC chem resistance chart _External_.PDF (spilltech.com) lists Ethyl Alcohol 96% compatible at 20C but at 60C Moderate – Some effect on the material at the given concentration and temperature. Caution advised. It does list Isopropyl alcohol as compatible.

    This chart that list flexible PVC shows that IPA is not compatible, but ethanol can be compatible or not compatible - chemical-compatibility-guide.xlsx (live.com).

    This chart for plasticized PVC CHEMCHAR.pdf (kentain.com) shows Ethyl Alcohol as Limited at 20C.

    In summary - the 'charts' are of limited guidance which in the absence of quantifiable evidence for a record leaves the question to be debated by those that wish to debate. Note that measuring for weight loss is not how the record will 1st be attacked - the 1st level of solvent attack of a polymer such as the record is swell (weight gain). Plasticized PVC will be attacked by a solvent by dissolving/extracting the plasticizer which will yield weight loss.
     
    Last edited: Oct 10, 2021
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  3. pacvr

    pacvr Forum Resident

    Location:
    Maryland
    For the Triton, boost the concentration to 0.075% (so add ~1/2 teaspoon). Otherwise, the Liquinox will remove those fingerprints. If you use the Liquinox for pre-clean, reduce the Triton concentration back to 0.05% to ease rinsing.
     
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  4. recstar24

    recstar24 Senior Member

    Location:
    Glen Ellyn, IL
    Hi Neil!

    Your paper on record cleaning has been my
    Standard go to for my current process so I appreciate all that you do!

    I had ordered the brush above and just received today. It’s probably the best and most effective wet brush I’ve used. I had been using a paint pad but the record doctor brush simply is easier and more effective to use.

    Quick question - do you use the same brush for your cleaner step and DIW rinse step? Also, how exactly do you clean the brush post cleaning step (I’m assuming of any residual tergitol remaining)?
     
  5. pacvr

    pacvr Forum Resident

    Location:
    Maryland
    I use the same brush throughout. For every rinse after the cleaning step, the brush per the book Steps 6 & 8: "...But, at the end, separately rinse the record both sides and the brush with only a steady stream (no need for spray) of water to ensure removal of CLEANER/NID from both."

    However, the brush (no brush) is not used for the final DIW rinse. When you have completed cleaning all records per the book Step 16: "Using the DIW spray or wash/rinse bottle, flush the Record Doctor™ Clean Sweep Record Brush, let dry and recommend storing in clean plastic bag or container to maintain cleanliness.". FYI - the plastic case from Extra Sugarfree Gum | Walgreens makes a perfect storage case for the brush.

    Take care,
    Neil
     
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  6. Veech

    Veech Space In Sounds Thread Starter

    Location:
    Los Angeles, CA
    Hey Neil, I received the Liquinox. So I plan to make a mix of 3 oz Liquinox + 29 oz distilled water for pre-cleaner.

    I have found that using the label protector is a bit of a hassle and using my RCM is preferable to washing in the sink. I have two RCM vacuum wands, one for soap and one for water. I also have a couple of other cleaning brushes, one is the Mobile Fidelity wide-base brush

    [​IMG]


    and the other is a VPI brush with stiffer bristles than the Record Doctor.

    [​IMG]


    So, using my VPI my thought is:

    Step one: pre-cleaner, VPI brush, extract with soap wand.
    Step two: Triton, Mobile Fidelity brush, extract with soap wand.
    Step three: distilled water, Record Doctor brush, extract with water wand.

    Should I add a DIW step between one and two? Also, what are your thoughts on the two brushes?

    Thanks again.
     
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  7. pacvr

    pacvr Forum Resident

    Location:
    Maryland
    If you are going to just use your VPI vacuum-RCM you want to reduce the CLEANER (Liquinox) and NID (Triton X100) concentration to minimize foam and improve rinse efficiency. Here is the procedure from the book modified for your use of Triton X100.

    XIII.4.a Pre-clean exceptionally dirty records with Alconox™ Liquinox™ at 0.5% (5 mL per Liter or Quart) - vacuum but do not fully dry. Depending on the record condition, two pre-clean steps may be required. Although the Alconox™ Liquinox™ will foam, most of the foam is collected in the brush as noted Figure 15.

    XIII.4.b Rinse pre-cleaner with DIW - vacuum, but do not fully dry.

    XIII.4.c Final clean with Triton X100 at 0.05% (0.5 mL per Liter or Quart) - vacuum and do not fully dry. There will be some foam as noted Figure 17, but most of the foam will be in the brush. Note if using a 10% Triton X100 solution then mix 5 mL per Liter or Quart or 1-teaspoon/Quart.

    XIII.4.d Rinse final cleaner with DIW - vacuum and fully dry. When drying be careful of drying too long that can cause static to form.

    Because the above rinses after each cleaner application, it also rinses the vacuum wand so people who use the above procedure generally use the same vacuum wand.

    WRT to brushes, the book says the following: XIII.3 If using vacuum-RCM for a pre-clean step, and if using the same brush for pre and final clean, rinse the record brush separately before any follow-on step to ensure pre-cleaner is not on the brush. In this instance first rinsing with tap water to remove the cleaner and then a quick spray with DIW or dip in a bowl filled with DIW can work.

    You want to rinse the brush(es) after each cleaner use otherwise the brush will accumulate detritus and you will end contaminating follow-on records. Of the brushes - the simple long bristle types - the VPI and Record Dr are very easy to rinse; the Mobile Fidelity brush not so much. Additionally, the long-bristle brushes collect/draw-up cleaner/foam which minimizes grinding detritus into the record. Long story short, I first started using the Mobile Fidelity brush - I no longer use it.

    So, if you want - use the VPI brush for the pre-clean/rinse and then use the Record Dr for the final-clean/rinse.

    Good Luck,
    Neil
     
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  8. recstar24

    recstar24 Senior Member

    Location:
    Glen Ellyn, IL
    Thanks Neil! You may have already answered this above in regards to the MOFI brush...but I'm assuming that my current method of using a paint pad would not be optimal, correct?

    I'm using a RCM as well (Nitty Gritty), so the NID cleaning step I use the record doctor brush, and for the DIW step I'm using a paint pad.
     
  9. pacvr

    pacvr Forum Resident

    Location:
    Maryland
    The Record Dr brush has proven a superior item for my use. Its proven to be pretty much indestructible - no loss of bristles, no deterioration of the nylon handle with any of the cleaners I have used. I also find it much easier to work the brush since I can always see record surface I am cleaning/rinsing. I do not use any flat type brush to force the bristles into the record or cover the record in a manner I cannot see the record.

    However, you may find that for your process that the painters pad works for you. Experiment and try it both ways - Record Dr for final clean/DIW rinse and Record Dr final clean; painters pad for rinse. But consider that over time, if you do not rinse the painters pad it will begin to accumulate final cleaner. Some people with vacuum-RCM, do two rinses. The first rinse after the final-cleaners is with brush while the 2nd (last) DIW rinse is without the brush. Its just DIW and vacuum.

    Good Luck,
    Neil
     
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  10. recstar24

    recstar24 Senior Member

    Location:
    Glen Ellyn, IL
    Thank you! Makes perfect sense. On the Nitty Gritty, the suction takes place underneath the record (it’s one of the features the company says leads to a better vacuum), so I have to brush the DIW first, otherwise when you flip the record over it just spills all over the place.

    The record doctor brush I’m finding works so well it just makes sense to get another one so that I have one specifically for the NID and another for the DIW
     
  11. Ingenieur

    Ingenieur Going with the flow...

    Location:
    PA
    Which Record Doctor brush?
    The one with the swivel handle?
    Thanks
     
  12. pacvr

    pacvr Forum Resident

    Location:
    Maryland
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  13. Ingenieur

    Ingenieur Going with the flow...

    Location:
    PA
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  14. pacvr

    pacvr Forum Resident

    Location:
    Maryland
    You do realize what this is - its just AT607aStylus cleaning fluid (audio-technica.com)
    • Ingredients: deionized water, ethyl alcohol.
    If it can be shipped without being labeled flammable the ethyl alcohol would need to be ~10%.
     
  15. Ingenieur

    Ingenieur Going with the flow...

    Location:
    PA
    but it's magic water ;)
    I guess next time: 1 part 200 proof grain, 9 parts DW

    cancelled it
    Now what!?!?!
    ;)
     
    Last edited: Oct 14, 2021 at 10:31 PM
  16. pacvr

    pacvr Forum Resident

    Location:
    Maryland
    Careful, your personification of an engineer will be tarnished with that kind of talk :biglaugh:
     
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  17. lazydawg58

    lazydawg58 Know enough to know how much I don't know

    Location:
    Lillington NC
    I just got in a gallon of 1% Liquinox. I took a gallon of distilled water poured out 13 oz and replaced it with 13 oz of Liquinox. So now I have a gallon of pre-cleaning solution. I filled up a spray bottle with the solution. I should be able to refill the spray bottle 8-10 times from that gallon and be able to make nine more gallons from the original gallon. So roughly I've got 100 or so gallons of pre-cleaner.

    So based on this discussion I've altered my cleaning methods slightly. Here are my steps.

    1. Place record on old turntable and spray with the Liquinox based pre-cleaner.
    2. Scrub record with painter's pad while turning on TT.
    3. Vacuum side A.
    4. Repeat with side B.
    5. Place record in basin #1 (cleaning basin), filled with DIY solution (per gallon- 16 oz iso alcohol, 7 oz 10 % Triton X-100, 105 oz distilled water) and spin 20 times in each direction. (goat hair brushes in basin)
    6. Place on TT and vacuum both sides.
    7. Place record in basin # 2 (rinsing basin), filled with distilled water. Spin 10 times. (felt pads in basin)
    8. Place on TT and vacuum both sides.
    9. Place in new inner sleeve.
     
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  18. Ingenieur

    Ingenieur Going with the flow...

    Location:
    PA

    I have a dozen or so that need the heavy treatment.
    Where do I send them?
    :D
     
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  19. lazydawg58

    lazydawg58 Know enough to know how much I don't know

    Location:
    Lillington NC
    It would take me about 2 hours. How does $60 and you pay shipping? :edthumbs:
     
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  20. pacvr

    pacvr Forum Resident

    Location:
    Maryland
    So any results to report?

    Otherwise, one suggestion. Are you adding seven (7) ounces of 10% Triton to 1 gallon (128 oz)? If so, adding 7 oz of 10% to 128 oz = (7oz)(0.1)/(128oz) = (0.005468)(100%) = 0.5468 = 5,468 ppm. That is a pretty high concentration or are you adding 0.7 oz? Given that you now pre-clean with Liquinox you do not need the Triton to be very concentrated. To extend the life of basin#2, reducing the Triton X100 concentration to get ~0.05% (500ppm). (0.05%0/(10%)(128 Oz) = ~0.7oz (~4 teaspoons) will be get the full wetting and some detergency.

    EDIT - For Basin#1 you should do fine with just 10 spins or even 5-spins fwd, 5-spins backward.

    Neil
     
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  21. Veech

    Veech Space In Sounds Thread Starter

    Location:
    Los Angeles, CA
    Hey Neil,

    I just received my order of Tergikleen. Do you think it works better than Triton X-100 when used in combination with the Liquinox as a pre-clean?

    On a side note, I used the Liquinox + Triton-X cleaning process on an absolute beater LP I bought recently. I cleaned it using my old process and it was a wreck but I'm really surprised at the results achieved with Liquinox. Stunned actually. Tracks that were poor raised to fair. Tracks that were fair raised to good. One track that had five or six skips reduced to two. I'll clean it a couple more times to see if it helps further but honestly I'm already convinced that this process is much better than what I was doing prior.
     
    Last edited: Oct 16, 2021 at 3:28 AM
  22. pacvr

    pacvr Forum Resident

    Location:
    Maryland
    Did you buy Tergitol 15-S-9 Tergitol 15-S-3 and 15-S-9 Surfactant | TALAS (talasonline.com) or did you buy Tergikleen - Amazon.com: Clean Vintage Vinyl Records Like A Professional Archivist With TergiKleen Tergitol-based Fluid Concentrate : Electronics which is an entirely different product?

    Otherwise, as written in the book:

    -Section IV.1.a Exceptionally Dirty - Records that have tightly adherent contamination on top of the record such as mildew or oily residue; i.e., resurrecting a flea-market find. These records should receive the pre-clean step twice with the Alconox™ Liquinox™ CLEANER solution as specified CHAPTER V. MANUAL CLEANING PROCESS: before proceeding to the final clean step.

    -Section V.Step 5 - Info Note - For “exceptionally dirty” records such as those covered with large areas of mold or oily residue, recommend performing the pre-clean/rinse V.Step.5 & V.Step.6 twice. The process uses very little CLEANER and exceptionally dirty records may not be cleaned using only one application of the CLEANER.

    -Section XIII - "Depending on the record condition, two pre-clean steps may be required.".

    Since you now have label protector, for these "absolute beater LP" you are much better off cleaning these manually. Also, if you clean manually, you can add a weak acid wash to dissolve/remove hard particles that are nearly ground-in/pressed into the record that the Liquinox cannot remove. Use Alconox Citranox Amazon.com: Alconox 1832 Citranox Phosphate-Free Concentrated Cleaner and Metal Brightener, 1 quart Bottle : Health & Household at 1.5% (15 mL per Liter or Quart) - do not use this with your vacuum-RCM it will corrode. In these cases, as I wrote previously but modified for you:

    Pre-Clean Alconox Liquinox 1% spray bottle
    Tap-water rinse
    Pre-Clean Alconox Citranox 1.5% spray bottle
    Tap water rinse
    Final Clean Tergitol 15-S-9 (Triton X100 can be substituted) spray bottle
    Tap water rinse
    DIW spray rinse (this will leave beads of water on the surface)
    Dry with Vacuum-RCM.

    PS/When doing the manual clean process above, you really want to wear nitrile gloves. None of the chemicals are kind to hands. You may get by cleaning one record, but by the 2nd record the cleaners will have stripped any/all oils from any skin contact setting you up for skin crack/irritation.

    Keep us advised,
    Neil
     
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  23. lazydawg58

    lazydawg58 Know enough to know how much I don't know

    Location:
    Lillington NC
    Family over for the weekend so I won't be cleaning until first of week. If my Triton X100 is diluted to 10% wouldn't that be 0.7 oz of trition in a gallon? I was doing 5 oz to a gallon but based on one of your earlier responses I moved it up to 7.
     
  24. pacvr

    pacvr Forum Resident

    Location:
    Maryland
    I am pretty sure you are leaving out the decimal point - so what you are actually saying is "I was doing 0.5 oz to a gallon but based on one of your earlier responses I moved it up to 0.7"
     
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  25. Veech

    Veech Space In Sounds Thread Starter

    Location:
    Los Angeles, CA

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