Can you actually hear noise in your music from your direct drive turntable?

Discussion in 'Audio Hardware' started by radioalien, Jul 30, 2020.

  1. patient_ot

    patient_ot Forum Resident

    Location:
    USA
    No. All the Japanese direct drives and Japanese designed direct drives I have had or heard were very quiet. Cheap belt drives are noisier IME, especially turd designs like low-end Pro-Ject hummer/buzzer crap.
     
  2. BillWojo

    BillWojo Forum Resident

    Location:
    Burlington, NJ
    I've had several DD Japanese turntables and the drive noise was never an issue. Once you get to the mid level tables there is no perceptible noise. The higher end models just get better.
    For those that claim to hear noise I would suspect that there is a problem either with the bearing or drive electronics or that your so biased against DD tables that you think you hear it.

    @chervokas, Simple wow and flutter measurements would pick up any stability problems in the drive. Servo drives with feedback have been around for many decades. I have been servicing that sort of stuff for almost 40 years on machine tools. Command a low feedrate of an axis motor and try and hold the pulley as it slowly rotates, it never wavers no matter how hard you try and hold it back and you feel no pulsing or any indication that the motor is cogging. Like I said early on in this post, it's an urban myth generated by belt drive manufactures and the British audio magazine press to try and save their sales. It's utter nonsense.
    RPM and velocity changes can be easily measured, if the belt drive manufactures had a case they would have posted measurements supporting there hogwash. Show me the measurements! You can't because there are none.

    I'm currently building a two arm table using a Victor TT 71 motor unit, it's as stable a drive as you can get without spending big bucks on something like a Victor TT 101 that is just a little more precise. Remember, Victor invented the Quartz Locked DD motor, it's nothing more than a servo motor with a velocity feedback loop using a quartz crystal to generate and maintain the frequency. Really simple and basic today but revolutionary back in the day.

    BillWojo
     
  3. chervokas

    chervokas Forum Resident

    The big problem with motor cogging in turntable design is noise from motor vibration breakthrough. Speed stability issues relating to motor cogging can be dealt with more easily, servos are one solution, just using a heavy perimeter platter can be another. Turntables are like Rube Goldberg contraptions full of mechanical challenges that every turntable designer has to deal with one way or another.
     
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  4. radioalien

    radioalien Well-Known Member Thread Starter

    Location:
    Washington
    yes I was looking at that one last night, so tempting! also guy near me is selling two Technics 1200MK2's for $600
     
  5. Boltman92124

    Boltman92124 Fish tacos.

    Location:
    San Diego
    a lot of the time, if someone is selling two 1200's, they were used for DJ purposes and be wary. I guess if you can test them out before buying, that's an option. For me, my next TT is going to be a new 1200 Mk7. I've really enjoyed the LP120 though. No issues whatsoever and it sounds great with a good external preamp and cartridge/alignment.
     
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  6. BillWojo

    BillWojo Forum Resident

    Location:
    Burlington, NJ
    Where is this motor vibration coming from? Never heard of such a thing on a very low speed motor. It's surely not from balancing of the platter. Can you explain this in more detail?
    Thank you

    BillWojo
     
  7. Uglyversal

    Uglyversal Forum Resident

    Location:
    Sydney
    AC current circulating through the coils +,-,+,-,+, push, stop, push, stop
     
  8. BillWojo

    BillWojo Forum Resident

    Location:
    Burlington, NJ
    So a low power sine wave circulating through the coils will induce vibrations? Remember, you have a heavy platter it's working against. There is this thing called "Moment of Inertia". Maybe you missed that in Physics class.
    So in the real world, can any of this be measured? If the platter is vibrating or surging or what ever, it is measurable fairly easily.
    Measurements clearly show that almost all belt drive tables have serious wow and flutter issues. Some of the most popular TT company's won't even publish specifications for it but will gladly sell you platter and power supply upgrades to try and get it better.
    The very first thing any TT needs to do is get the speed right with very low levels of wow and flutter. That statement can not be argued against, it's a given. As a matter of fact, almost all mid level DD TT from the heyday of turntables had good if not great specifications.

    BillWojo
     
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  9. Uglyversal

    Uglyversal Forum Resident

    Location:
    Sydney
    OK, you need to feel the house move to consider it a vibration, you are right.
     
  10. BillWojo

    BillWojo Forum Resident

    Location:
    Burlington, NJ
    I don't even know how to response to that remark. But you did make me laugh.
    Since you are so sure the platter is vibrating, please show me test results. Surely every belt drive manufacture has the results posted on their site. Should be easy for you to find. I'm not holding my breath though, to busy laughing.

    BillWojo
     
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  11. Uglyversal

    Uglyversal Forum Resident

    Location:
    Sydney
    No, I don't think you should hold your breath because now you want an argument and I m not going to be part of it.
     
  12. BillWojo

    BillWojo Forum Resident

    Location:
    Burlington, NJ
    I'm not looking for an argument either and since you can't back up your statements lets just agree to disagree.

    BillWojo
     
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  13. Brother_Rael

    Brother_Rael Forum Resident

    Location:
    Scottish Borders
    I have a Super OEM deck (Eagletone One.Two) and have to say I think it's terrific. Easily as good as my former P3/AT440MLa and I s**t you not. Currently spinning Public Enemy (It Takes a Nation of Millions) and a bunch of others tonight. Bought as NOS a month or two back, but went originally for about £500 back in 2012. Mainly in France I think. No rumble, or power noise that I can hear whatsoever.

    Plus: you also need to get over the audiophile blah-blah that is out there. There are, for sure, some solid principles to hang on to when setting up your gear. There's also more than the fair share of utter b*ll*cks as well.
     
  14. The Pinhead

    The Pinhead SUDACA ROÑOSO

    It's bollocks.
     
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  15. Glmoneydawg

    Glmoneydawg Forum Resident

    Location:
    Ontario Canada
    Motor cogging is caused by the gaps between poles/coils not voltage...i'm sure the mass of the platter keeps dd tables spinning quiet and steady...the same mass keeps belt drives running steady.Mass damps out the microscopic vibrations being discussed here....and they truly are microscopic:)
     
    Last edited: Jul 31, 2020
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  16. Uglyversal

    Uglyversal Forum Resident

    Location:
    Sydney
    If that wasn't true wouldn't you agree that listening to records would be an unbearable torture?

    EDIT: It just seem that for some people here a vibration is not a vibration unless there is an earthquake or the speed is so unsteady that you can't listen to the records.
     
    Last edited: Jul 31, 2020
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  17. Darnon

    Darnon Well-Known Member

    Location:
    United States
    No noise from my SL-1200GR. Consequently, I had no noise from my 16yr old Pro-Ject Debut III either - quiet as a church rat, and ran like a Deer smooth as silk until the motor gave up the ghost.
     
  18. Nothing but beautiful music comes out of my direct-drive JVC QL-7. This thing is so damn quiet it's spooky...

    [​IMG]
     
  19. BillWojo

    BillWojo Forum Resident

    Location:
    Burlington, NJ
    I have the QL-A7 (Auto lift and shut off), it's the same motor unit and tonearm. Your description is very much true, it's like I switched to a different format.
    I'm using a Denon DL-103 cart on mine.
    My project in the works is a Victor constrained layer two arm plinth with the TT 71 motor drive from a JVC QL-7.
    JVC QL-?? owners thread
    Near the end of this long thread you can see details of my new armboards I'm building. Aluminum sub armboards that stay in the plinth and smaller armboards that will swap out quickly.
    I'm very impressed with the build quality of these JVC machines, way under rated.

    BillWojo
     
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  20. Hendertuckie

    Hendertuckie Forum Resident

    Location:
    Henderson, Nevada
    I have three DD tables is my system. The weakest would be a Denon DP-500m which uses a Halpin DD motor, I'm pretty sure it uses the same motor that's in the AT-1240. I can't hear motor noise, if it does make noise it may be reduced by the wood base. The other TT's are Technics: SL-1210MKII & SL-1800MKII and they are dead quite!
     
  21. wallabeing

    wallabeing Forum Resident

    Location:
    United States
    Only noise I hear is surface noise from the record, on a Technics 1200g, even on headphones.
     
  22. TheVinylAddict

    TheVinylAddict ___The Enforcer___

    Yeah, in practice they only place it seems this vaunted "noise" is heard is in the lab by electronic ears of testing equipment, and in the marketing rags when they are trying to disparage the DD platform.

    In practice and in real life, not so much, just a propagated myth.
     
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  23. Grant

    Grant Senior Member

    Location:
    United States
    And, that's it right there! All tables are different. I even hear rumble in some belt drives. And it's not just about the platter or motor. It's about the tone arm and cart/stylus. Even the material the plinth is made of, the feet of the table, and surface you place your table on make a difference.

    Thank goodness for digital.
     
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  24. edwyun

    edwyun Well-Known Member

    Location:
    USA
    Motor cogging and vibration can indeed be measured on all types of tables and can have a sonic effect. I mean, a table setup is one big vibrating sounding board. In the pics, disregard the 3150Hz tone and harmonics for the A/S test being conducted and focus on the motor noise shown as amplitude peaks between 60-200Hz. Same table, setup, cart, but different motors. The noise is -85 or -90dB down but it is there and does have an impact IMHO. Some motors are better than others. Not about DD, belt, or idler but depends on implementation.

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]
     
    Last edited: Aug 1, 2020
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  25. BrentB

    BrentB Forum Resident

    Location:
    Midwestern US
    Well by nature these things devolve into this. Accept it or not.
     
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