Can you guys really hear huge differences In DACs?

Discussion in 'Audio Hardware' started by Tone?, Nov 27, 2018.

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  1. Thomas_A

    Thomas_A Forum Resident

    Location:
    Uppsala, Sweden
    I think the question is impossible to answer. Huge is a subjective term. Turning down the treble control to a minimum may be huge but also turning it down just so slightly.

    But if it defined as different:
    There are probably a bunch of DACs that can be audible different both using open and blind tests and also for reasons that can be measured. Then there is a bunch of converter that are different in open but not blind tests. And finally those that are different in open tests but never tested blindly.
     
  2. Chris Schoen

    Chris Schoen Rock 'n Roll !!!

    Location:
    Maryland, U.S.A.
    I use a HRT iStreamer (DAC) between my iPod Classic and my stereo receiver (aux input), and it really works well. You can probably find a used iStreamer for around 100 bucks, and try it.
     
  3. Tim 2

    Tim 2 MORE MUSIC PLEASE

    Location:
    Alberta Canada
    I have Tital in two systems through Blue Sound and yes my DAC's make a big improvement. Couldn't go back to no DAC now.

    More equipment info on profile if your interested.
     
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  4. slcaudiophile

    slcaudiophile Forum Resident

    Location:
    Salt Lake City
    get a turntable!
     
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  5. jdsher

    jdsher Forum Resident

    Location:
    Plano, Texas, USA
    Back in the day I ran a California Audio Labs Icon II CD player and eventually added a PS Audio Ultralink DAC to it. Every so often I would remove the Ultralink just to convince myself that it did something and the change in sound was remarkable. Even now, I have my Sony XA-5400ES hooked with balanced inputs directly to my preamp and also a coax input into my Simaudio Moon 280D DAC/streamer, so I can listen to a CD both and without the DAC instantly and again it's pretty incredible the audible difference. In my experience DACs make an enormous difference even at a lower cost point.
    Jon
     
  6. trickness

    trickness Gotta painful yellow headache

    Location:
    Manhattan
    I have 2 DACS by the same manufacturer (Schiit Gumby A2 and Yggy A2) and can hear the differences clearly. I think a lot of it depends on what kind of listener you are and what kind of gear you have. If you pay attention to things like reverb tails then you’re going to hear the differences.
     
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  7. basie-fan

    basie-fan Forum Resident

    Comparing the DAC in my budget CPD - the Onkyo c7030 with Wolfson DAC - to Schiit's lowest price R2R DAC the Mimby the difference is very noticeable. The soundstage with the Mimby is wider and deeper and there is greater clarity and extension at the high and very low ends of the frequency spectrum. Quite an improvement for only $250 USD.
     
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  8. Doug Walton

    Doug Walton Forum Resident

    Location:
    United States
    FWIW, I think a lot of people thought the Benchmark DAC1 wasn't that great.
     
  9. Doug Sclar

    Doug Sclar Forum Legend

    Location:
    The OC
    I absolutely do. And if you can hear proper reverb tails you can probably hear a lot of other things that many miss.
     
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  10. Rolltide

    Rolltide Forum Resident

    Location:
    Vallejo, CA
    I think it's absolutely fantastic myself. I use it in a desktop system to drive active monitors, and it also does a great job driving high impedance headphones. I prefer it to a Schiit Bifrost/Valhalla stack in that regard, and much more portable.

    But system matching is a thing, and a Benchmark DAC1 shouldn't even be brought into the same room as an Audio Note system. Completely opposite engineering philosophies there that simply don't mesh well.
     
    No Static and SandAndGlass like this.
  11. RiCat

    RiCat Forum Resident

    Location:
    CT, USA
    With the loss of so many dedicated audio stores we the users have been placed in a difficult position. It is not a question of what piece of gear is the best but one of which one sounds best in my system and most important room/environment. Even for those who have dedicated and tweaked rooms, two excellent speakers will sound different. This is not just personal taste. Factor in the personal preferences and selecting any component becomes hit or miss if we can not hear it in our system. Speakers are usually obvious. Here we are talking DACs where more refined differences come into play across price ranges. My method of purchase has been to set my budget, survey the market, read reviews for glaring negatives and then narrow things down. I try to buy from stores and sellers who allow returns or in the least full apply of the purchase cost to a different item upon return. I was lucky as I had the Squeezebox in system and was able to get the Bluesound, Cambridge streamer/Dac and the Oppo in my house at the same time. Little did I know more changes were to come.
     
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  12. Tone?

    Tone? Forum Resident Thread Starter

    Location:
    San Francisco

    Yup agree 100%.

    Why with guitar gear I would often also go to NAMM and other shows to check out gear before buying.
     
  13. old45s

    old45s MP3 FREE ZONE

    Location:
    SYDNEY, AUSTRALIA
    I'd actually never heard of standalone DAC's until I started reading all the interesting stuff on this site.
    I upgraded my older Denon CDP to a (half size) Rega Apollo CDP and immediately noticed the difference in sound quality.
    With this in mind now... when I win Lotto I will go the "whole hog" (another upgrade) ... so between now and then I will suck up all you guy's opinions on DAC's and transports and make a decision when my numbers come up!
     
    Tone? likes this.
  14. punkmusick

    punkmusick Amateur drummer

    Location:
    Brazil
    And a phono stage. And a cartridge. And low capacitance cables. And loading plugs. And another cartridge with a different stylus profile. Than another one. Than a MC. Than a SUT. A different phono stage. Another MC. Than upgrade the turntable. Then a different mat. One more mat. Then different feet. Than different headshell. One more headshell. Record clamp. Peripheral ring. Other cables. XLR.

    and...

    A record. Another record. 500 records. 5000 records. A shelf. Another shelf. A level. A bubble. An antistatic brush. Stylus brush. A record cleaner machine. More records.

    and...

    Well... Tidal and a DAC.
     
    Last edited: Nov 29, 2018
  15. Tone?

    Tone? Forum Resident Thread Starter

    Location:
    San Francisco

    Hahahahaha.

    Thanks. That was good man.
     
  16. Stone Turntable

    Stone Turntable Independent Head

    Location:
    New Mexico USA
    I recently bought a Schiit Modi Multibit and was prepared to return it before the end of the trial period if I didn't hear improvement vs. the original Modi optical DAC I've been using since 2014.

    "Huge differences" would be an exaggeration, but there has definitely been a noticeable step up in resolution, depth, and a kind of spotlighting enhancement of elements in the soundstage, particularly in terms of bass musicality. The old Modi was excellent but offered something more akin to a clear, vivid flat screen of sound, whereas the Modi Multibit draws you into a soundstage with more holographic presence and character.

    I'm keeping it.
     
  17. Tone?

    Tone? Forum Resident Thread Starter

    Location:
    San Francisco
    Ha that sounded like you were talking to yourself.
    Lol

    Just convinced yourself to keep it.

    I’m messin
     
    Stone Turntable likes this.
  18. Stone Turntable

    Stone Turntable Independent Head

    Location:
    New Mexico USA
    Placebo effect vs. getting my 250 bucks back? I was definitely half-hoping they sounded exactly the same.

    :cheers:
     
    Tone? likes this.
  19. punkmusick

    punkmusick Amateur drummer

    Location:
    Brazil
    I have the original Modi and I was shocked once when I tried my iPad and preferred the iPad.
     
  20. wavethatflag

    wavethatflag God is love, but get it in writing.

    Location:
    SF Bay Area
    I bought the Jotunheim with their "dual mono" delta sigma DAC module before they offered a multibit module. I've thought about sending it to Schiit for an upgrade, but then I guess I'm not convinced I'm going to hear any real difference.

    On the other hand, while the company is obviously in business to make money, I think those guys are straight shooters, or at least strike me as such in interviews, and wouldn't be offering various DACs at various price points if it just didn't matter in terms of differences in the listening.

    Or maybe I'm missing the point. Maybe some people want a DAC that employs a specific technology regardless of any differences in sound.
     
    Last edited: Nov 29, 2018
  21. Larry I

    Larry I Senior Member

    Location:
    Washington, D.C.
    I have attended a few blind auditions of DACs. Among top candidates, one can usually hear differences, but, it is not that clear that one is better than the other. Sometimes certain music favors one, but, put on something different and the other sounds better. In some cases one does better at one thing, but, another does better at some other thing. Sometimes it matters what the other components are as to which sounds better.

    Even when the DACs are VERY similar, such as a blind shootout of Audio Note DAC-3, DAC-4 and DAC-5 (I believe they have identical digital conversion and differ only in the quality of their analogue gain stages and power supplies), subtle differences can be heard. I easily identified the DACs is a shootout between the 3 and 4, but, I found it harder to distinguish between the 4 and 5. Given the huge price difference between the 4 and 5, the 4 appeared to be a relative bargain.
     
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  22. Stone Turntable

    Stone Turntable Independent Head

    Location:
    New Mexico USA
    I've always liked the sound of the DACs in iDevices I've owned.

    But I've never been tempted to use my iPad's headphone out to feed music to my hi-fi system.
     
  23. scottschecter

    scottschecter Forum Resident

    Location:
    Oregon
    I just spent a few hours comparing my new Chord Electronics Qutest DAC to my previous iBasso D14 Bushmaster DAC in my headphone system and the difference is remarkable.
     
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  24. Ham Sandwich

    Ham Sandwich Senior Member

    Location:
    Sherwood, OR, USA
    I have an original Modi USB version. It's a good entry level $99 DAC for back when it was released. The Modi 2 is better. The Modi 3 is better still.

    I've got a Modi 3 right now. It's a Christmas gift for my brother. But until it is time to gift wrap it I'm giving it an audition. He's gonna get a DAC with some burn in time on it. Cause I need to play with it, to make sure it works, and to satisfy my curiosity.

    I have the Modi 3 and Gungnir Multibit (original version, not the new analog 2 version) both plugged into a Monoprice Cavalli Liquid Platinum headphone amp. The Gumby with balanced inputs and the Modi 3 with single ended inputs. The Liquid Platinum has a switch on the front that switches between the single ended and balanced inputs. An easy way to compare the two DACs.

    The two DACs aren't that different tonality, nor should they because they both measure flat and are from the same audio company designed by the same engineer who likes a certain style of sound. They're not exactly the same tonality, but close enough that most non-audiophile listeners would probably not notice a difference with typical popular music. Audiophiles though will notice. What's illuminating about A/B comparisons like this is that when doing quick switching between the two DACs (say 5 seconds on one and 5 seconds on the other then back again for 5 seconds...) the more they begin to sound alike. At first you'll hear a difference and then more and more they come to sound more alike. But try longer lightening samples (say a couple minutes each) and the differences become more noticeable. It's like it takes the brain a minute or two or three to adjust to the holographic sound of the Gumby (this adjustment period also depends greatly on the quality of the recording, on good recordings the adjustment period is shorter and the difference more noticeable). To me that's a huge difference and well worth the $1000+ difference between the DACs. But to normal (non-audiophile) people I could accept that they don't hear a noticeable difference between the DACs with the music they like to listen to.

    This sort of difference between how audiophiles and non-audiophiles listen was made clear back when the PonoPlayer was released. There were reviews of people doing A/B tests of the Pono vs. iPhone and not hearing a difference. As an audiophile I heard a very clear difference between the Pono and iDevices and similar devices. A clear difference in soundstage depth and holography. But it's obvious that non-audiophiles don't listen for those sorts of differences or are even able to hear those differences. As an audiophile I found the difference between a Pono and iPhone to be huge. But to normal people it seems to be insignificant. I'm sure if I had the people who didn't hear a difference between the Pono and iPhone listen to my setup with the Modi 3 and Gungnir Multibit they also wouldn't hear a difference. But if you listened to my setup with the Modi 3 and Gungnir Multibit you'd hear a huge and noticeable difference.
     
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  25. basie-fan

    basie-fan Forum Resident

    Nice review; thanks Ham. I believe the Modi 3 is not the multibit architecture. I'd be very interested to hear from anyone who's compared the Modi MB with Gungnir MB. Gumby has more features, but I wonder if it sounds better than Mimby for standard Redbook playback? (Yes, Schiit has a try/return policy but these things are not so easy when you live outside the U.S.)
     
    Anonamemouse likes this.
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