Can you guys really hear huge differences In DACs?

Discussion in 'Audio Hardware' started by Tone?, Nov 27, 2018.

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  1. Yamahaha

    Yamahaha Sir Pepe of LePew

    Location:
    Alberta, Canada
    I use my ears and dont like to waste money. Fact "FOR ME" is, I disliked digital greatly until I got my Hegel HD12. Not saying its the greatest and no connection to Hegel. Just for me, finally digital sounded good. Now for those who still dont get it, I own an IPOD classic. I used it in my workshop all the time. I had it plugged into a Yamaha CD player (forget the model) so it used the Yammys internal dac which was tolerable vs straight in from IPOD which was not. It was very flat and meh sounding. But, I was working planers, jointer, bandsaw etc. Obviously, no point in going hifi. So, I know the difference. Sure some may not care and good for you. But I know what I hear. The IPOD sounds like ASS.

    HiFi arguments will never end. Because two extremes exist. Those of the "earbud" crowd who truly are clueless and make youtube videos based on the ridiculous re-sampling then comparing. The other side being "I spend therefore I am" audiophiles. There is a happy medium, but its a personal experience to get there.

    My ears know what I like. $'s or millennial rants be damned.
     
    TarnishedEars likes this.
  2. Yamahaha

    Yamahaha Sir Pepe of LePew

    Location:
    Alberta, Canada
    See, you went and got it all wrong but have a strong opinion. The chip is just ONE part of a DAC. There is timing and the ANALOG stage, PSU. Its not just a chip but a complete device with lots of things to change performance. Your analogy is like saying you have a lawn mover engine for $20 therefore you have a car.
     
    jusbe likes this.
  3. Archimago

    Archimago Forum Resident

    True that the analogue stage is important. However, these days, for standard say 2Vrms output, it's not like we need to spend hundreds or require select components to keep the signal coming out of the DAC clean.

    After all, isn't that what we're looking for? The final analogue output needs simply to remain undistorted for what comes out from the DAC chip...

    In my experience with measurements, while I can find PSU differences including very cheap switching units, there's not that much difference when it comes to noise and signal distortion. Very much over-rated IMO.
     
    Stone Turntable likes this.
  4. Helom

    Helom Forum member

    Location:
    U.S.
    Since I last posted in this thread, I acquired a Pro-Ject Pre Box S2 Digital. I'm pleased to report I can hear consistent and worthwhile improvement over my previous DACs. It's definitely the best preforming DAC I've encountered for the money.

    I also enjoy my Pro-Ject DAC Box S Fl. It's warmer and less resolving than the Pre Box S2 but makes for great synergy with my Heresys.
     
  5. Yamahaha

    Yamahaha Sir Pepe of LePew

    Location:
    Alberta, Canada
    Have to respectfully disagree. Again the chip is just one component. Its nothing to do with $ either. I could cobble together a raspberry powered DAC, wrap in a cute box and sell for any price. It wouldn't sound good because I dont know what I am doing. Take someone who knows exactly what they are doing, like Moffat over at Schiit (just an example, I dont own any of their stuff) and you'll get a good product. Take my Hegel, its made in China. The designer in Norway designed a good circuit, decided on components etc and then off the the factory. Its not just a chip. Just a chip in a $20 walmart bluray player will covert digital to analog. They sound like garbage. Its actually quite amazing how cheap these things are considering the calculation going on, however they come with a ton of error correction too, which sounds very bad. The DAC in my expensive OPPO is supposed to be something, its merely OK. I would argue that 2v should not be the only goal in an output stage. A lot can happen in the path to output and that EXACTLY where circuit design comes in. Amplify sound or noise?. As for your power supply comment, thats just silly. The biggest problem in any integrated device is separating power from components. Even I can understand this. Take an electric guitar near fluorescent lights for example, or its own amplifier. Amazing what electricity does.
     
    jusbe, SirMarc, Jerjo and 1 other person like this.
  6. daglesj

    daglesj Forum Resident

    Location:
    Norfolk, UK
    No I stand by what I said. The $10 can sound great with the right bits tacked on or the $50 one. Sure it's more than just the chip but folks will just fixate on that.

    Like I said, some folks will like one or the other. It's mature tech.

    It's down to taste. But some will still have to justify the huge expenditure (mainly to the wife).
     
  7. daglesj

    daglesj Forum Resident

    Location:
    Norfolk, UK

    I would say probably $20 worth of electronics is needed to get the best out of most modern DACs. Anything else is gravy and $1000 machined aluminium cases.
     
  8. Tone?

    Tone? Forum Resident Thread Starter

    Location:
    San Francisco
    Don’t know if I said it earlier on. But I got the maranta hd DAC and love the **** outta it.

    Now to make a thread in headphones
     
  9. Kyhl

    Kyhl On break

    Location:
    Savage
    Updating my previous view from a new perspective. Huge difference? No.
    Significant difference, sometimes. The core of my system has stayed static for nearly 15 years. In that time I've have at least six different digital to audio converters of some sort. Might have changed them almost every two years. Meanwhile I'm still using the same turntable for the last 15 years. I think I'm finally happy with a DAC. Next up, either turntable or speakers.
     
    SandAndGlass likes this.
  10. Chris Schoen

    Chris Schoen Rock 'n Roll !!!

    Location:
    Maryland, U.S.A.
    Hagerman is a great example of good design. Ugly as hell, but they out-perform most "audiophile" grade components. Don't know if they have gotten into any DAC, but their pre-amps are tops.
     
  11. Stone Turntable

    Stone Turntable Independent Head

    Location:
    New Mexico USA
    Having strong, two-fisted, aggressive, manly, hyperconfident, in-your-face, I-know-what-I-like-and-fools-be-damned opinions apparently based on comparing a wide range of DACs from cheap to high-end audiophile is not a mindset I associate with people who don’t like to waste money, at least on DACs.

    :cheers:
     
    Halloween_Jack likes this.
  12. unclefred

    unclefred Coastie with the Moastie

    Location:
    Oregon Coast
    He's been an ardent Apple shill for years.
     
  13. Done A Ton

    Done A Ton Birdbrain

    Location:
    Rural Kansas
    I bought a used DAC Box S FL. I don't know about warmer, but it's definitely less resolving than whatever DAC is in my CD player.

    Although it can only output 16/44.1, it can input 24/192. I fed it the digital out from my Tascam DA-3000, 24/192 needle drops that are pretty impressive on the Tascam sounded like MP3s through the Pro-Ject.

    I guess it can earn it's keep if I run an optical cable from my TV to my hi-fi. Get me some of that TDA1543 R2R non-oversampling, filterless Jeopardy audio. ;)
     
  14. Litejazz53

    Litejazz53 Perfect Sound Through Crystal Clear Digital

    I would think you can have your cake and eat it too with a Marantz NA-6006 Streaming device. It will stream all your Internet music providers and it has a nice built in DAC of high enough quality to get the job done, plug your computer into it as well, and it's less expensive than 98% of the streamer/DACs on the market now, it's a nice deal, good looking, just a nice product, perfect for you.
     
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  15. Helom

    Helom Forum member

    Location:
    U.S.
    Yup, sacrifices some detail for sure. It makes for a warmer listen with my Heresys which is a good thing. I also find it has good timing/pace/rhythm (pick your term) compared to some other DACs.
     
    SandAndGlass likes this.
  16. Brother_Rael

    Brother_Rael Senior Member

    Hang on, you've got an objectively carried out test on various bits of gear versus, what, fawning acceptance of MQA in some quarters. Who's doing the biggest service to the audiophile?
     
    Halloween_Jack, jusbe and Melvin like this.
  17. Yamahaha

    Yamahaha Sir Pepe of LePew

    Location:
    Alberta, Canada
    The Marantz DAC is OK but didnt sound good to me. Comparable with the Oppo but i couldn't listen to it long.
     
  18. Claus

    Claus Senior Member

    Location:
    Germany
    It is always the whole package.... I have listened to dCS, emmLabs, MSB and Nagra, and the differences were NOT huge. I would say 5% or less was the maximum. That is not a large sound difference IMO.
     
  19. So the differences are not as audibles like when comparing different Phono cartridges of the same range. Would you dare to say that D/A converters have little or no "personality"?
     
  20. LeeS

    LeeS Music Fan

    Location:
    Atlanta
    Claus,

    You are my favorite German audiophile and an all around good guy. But on this one point we differ. In my experience, things like resolution, soundstage, and timbre can be quite different between brands, models, and price points. In your case, you have listened to some very high quality, indeed reference, products. At that level then sure maybe 5-10% difference. But for other comparisons, it can be quite large.
     
  21. Claus

    Claus Senior Member

    Location:
    Germany
    I can’t verify that. I never had a ”cheap“ DAC in my listening rooms. ;)

    My first DAC was a double stacking Krell and their CD transport with the acryl cover. I also had a Wadia CD player in my rack. The Krell was the first one with a very good playback. Not as good as my Well Tempered Signature turntable with Lyra Clavis cart.

    The modern DACs (chips) are very good compared to the beginning or 10 years ago. I believe the expensive DACs benefit most from selected parts, ultra-low jitter clocks, analog stage and huge power supplies.

    By the way Nagra’s HD DAC X is my favorite DAC. The resolution and musicality is awesome. I prefer the Nagra over dCS Vivaldi 2 and MSB Select DAC. But the differences are small, maybe others have other preferences.
     
  22. sotosound

    sotosound Forum Resident

    So... how are you all connecting your digital sources to your DACs?

    Having personally found how different sounding digital interconnects can be, I'm interested to know, since this will influence what you hear.
     
  23. Kyhl

    Kyhl On break

    Location:
    Savage
  24. Melvin

    Melvin Forum Resident

    Location:
    Pennsylvania
    microRendu -> UpTone USPCB A>B Adapter -> DAC
    Chromecast Audio -> cheap Toslink cable -> DAC
     
    sotosound likes this.
  25. Larry Johnson

    Larry Johnson Senior Member

    Location:
    Chicago area
    Ethernet cable from Ethernet switch to PS Audio Direct Stream w/ Bridge to amp. Sounds wonderful and could not be simpler.
     
    Whistlerskibum likes this.
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