Can You Play DSD Files from Synology NAS using Sony BD Player?

Discussion in 'Audio Hardware' started by jeffmackwood, Jan 19, 2021.

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  1. jeffmackwood

    jeffmackwood Forum Resident Thread Starter

    Location:
    Ottawa
    I have a couple of Sony UBP-X800 Blu-ray players. Among other things I use them to stream my music collection (DSD, FLAC, MP3) from servers connected to my home network.

    I have been using a couple of Seagate Personal Cloud NAS devices.

    The Sonys have had no problem playing music files from them, including DSD (.dsf) files (stereo and multichannel). This despite the fact that the X800's owner's manual says that "The player may not play this file format on a Home Network server" - with reference to .dsf files.

    As the Seagates are reaching their capacity I have just bought a Synology DS220j two-bay NAS and a single (for now) 8TB WD Red Plus drive for it. This is the latest generation Synology NAS, running latest generation firmware and up-to-date apps. I'm not using RAID, but rather JBOD, as it will only be used for streaming; backups are done elsewhere so a drive failure would be only an inconvenience, not a catastrophe.

    I completed the set up and installed the required apps. I loaded a test folder containing three music files (one each of DSD, FLAC and MP3) and placed the folder in the NAS' Music folder.

    The Sony X800s see and play the FLAC and MP3 files, but do not see the DSD file. The Sonys continue to see and play any DSD files on the old Seagate servers.

    I can see and play the three test files, including the DSD file, from the Synology NAS using Foobar, on either my desktop or laptop PCs. This leads me to believe that the "problem" resides not with the Synology NAS, but rather with the Sony.

    It makes me wonder why the Sonys will exceed expectations (when it comes to streaming DSD) with the Seagates, but only meet expectations (ie. do not stream DSD, as per the manual) with the Synology. What makes the Synology different than the Seagates?

    Perhaps there is something in the myriad possible settings on the Synology that I need to activate / change in order to have it behave like the Seagates, at least as for as the Sony sees it. But remember, the Sonys see and play FLAC and MP3 files ok.

    So my question to anyone who uses both a Synology NAS (with the most recent firmware/apps) and a Sony X800 (or similar): can you see and stream DSD files?

    If someone can, that gives me hope that my Synology NAS might be configured to do so as well. If you can, please let me know.

    Jeff
     
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  2. Apesbrain

    Apesbrain Forum Resident

    Location:
    East Coast, USA
    When you stream across your network from the Seagate to your Sony BD, you are using DLNA. From the Seagate user manual: "The DLNA service, an industry-wide standard for sharing data over a home network, is turned on by default on your Personal Cloud." Seagate is employing DLNA server software most likely licensed from a third-party. While you may have installed the Synology "Media Server" (DLNA) add-on to your new NAS, it appears to not have the same capabilities/behaviors as the version on the Seagate when it comes to DSD.

    Can you try one of the other DLNA servers available as a Synology add-on? MinimServer is very highly regarded. PLEX is another candidate.

    Additional reading:
    MinimServer Forum - DSD Files: audio/x-dsf vs. audio/dsd MIME type (was Add DLNA.ORG_PN parameter)

    Another option might be to continue to use the Seagate DLNA server but point it at the disk storage on the Synology as your media source. I don't know if the Seagate user interface allows this, however.

    BTW, foobar2000 has no issue either way because it is not streaming; it is simply loading and playing the file from whatever location you specify.
     
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  3. jeffmackwood

    jeffmackwood Forum Resident Thread Starter

    Location:
    Ottawa
    Thanks for that information. Very helpful. I'll work my way through it.

    The last point in particular is instructive. It means I can't rule out whether the core issue is with the Synology NAS.

    From the DSM Help - General Settings for the Media Server package (Synology's term for app):

    You can play the following multimedia file formats on Synology NAS with DLNA/UPnP enabled DMA, but the actual playback capabilities may vary depending on the DLNA/UPnP client.
    • Audio: AAC, FLAC, M4A, MP3, Ogg Vorbis, PCM, WAV, WMA, WMA VBR, WMA PRO, WMA Lossless
    I'm not seeing DSD in that list.

    I've also looked through DSM Help - Play Music for the Audio Station package and it does mention DSD:

    High Quality Output
    You can enjoy better audio quality if your music files and the sound card of the DAC (Digital-to-analog converter) connected to your Synology NAS support 24-bit audio output when USB speakers are plugged in to your NAS server.

    To enable high quality output or DSD over PCM output:
    1. Go to Settings > Advanced.
    2. Once you have ticked Enable high quality output for USB speakers, you can then tick Enable DSD over PCM (DoP) output for USB speakers.
    3. Click OK.
    Note:
    1. Only 2-channel DSD64 and DSD128 files are supported if you enable DSD over PCM (DoP) output for USB speakers.
    2. Once you enable DSD over PCM (DoP) output for USB speakers, both DSD64 and DSD128 files will be played via DoP. For example, a DAC that only supports DSD64 cannot play DSD128 files.
    It's not what I'm looking to do (ie. convert DSD to PCM). I'm looking to streaming DSD through the Sony to either my pre/pro or receiver, that can "eat" native DSD files. In addition it must handle multichannel DSD.

    So, so far it looks like DSD files are ok, but they're not treated the way I want them to be. They can neither be seen by the Sony, nor streamed by it.

    I'll keep looking through various packages/apps for the Synology (like MinimServer) to see if there's one that can do what I'm looking for.

    Further suggestions always welcome...

    Jeff
     
  4. Kyhl

    Kyhl On break

    Location:
    Savage
    I haven't worked with all the ins and outs of running dlna through the NAS so I can't help you there. I use JRiver to do the work of getting the music off the NAS to the DAC, or Bubble upnp to get the music from then internet stream to the DAC. Both cases are across a network connection, no USBs.

    I might be able to help with your question about DoP. DoP is DSD over PCM. It isn't converting DSD to PCM. It is packaging DSD data into a PCM datastream to be unpacked later. I think pretty much everything that plays DSD through a USB or a network connection is sending the DSD signal as DoP. Exceptions could be I2S or HDMI streams to a receiver, I think send actual DSD cross the line instead of camouflaging it inside a PCM stream.
     
  5. Apesbrain

    Apesbrain Forum Resident

    Location:
    East Coast, USA
  6. jeffmackwood

    jeffmackwood Forum Resident Thread Starter

    Location:
    Ottawa
    Thanks.

    Yes, it's using HDMI and sending actual DSD that I am doing.

    Jeff
     
  7. jeffmackwood

    jeffmackwood Forum Resident Thread Starter

    Location:
    Ottawa
    While I sort this out (which might take me some time and lots of trial and error), and in order to make use of the new Synology NAS (and offload some of the files from the older Seagates) I'm going to leave all of the DSD files on the two Seagates - which will fill each of their 5TB capacity to about half - and have loaded all of the other music files onto the new Synology NAS - which should also come to about half full, but I can always add another drive to that one in time. Barring failure of the Seagates, this should last me for at least a number of years, as my rate of acquisition of new music has greatly decreased, and I've pretty much ripped everything that I can from my physical media collection. Regardless, I'll still need to have a relatively simple strategy in place for streaming DSD by the Sonys (or whatever player(s) / devices) I'll be using in the future for when the Seagates do fail. Just can't do without my multichannel DSD streaming!

    Jeff
     
  8. jeffmackwood

    jeffmackwood Forum Resident Thread Starter

    Location:
    Ottawa
    So last evening I installed the MinimServer package on the Synology NAS. I was very hopeful, after having read a ton of info from its help pages, that it would work.

    It spent the night re-indexing the NAS' music contents.

    I've just tried it out and, while FLAC and MP3 are handled no problem, the Sony UBP-X800 does not "see" any of the DSD files.

    So the Sony continues to do what its manual says (ie. may not play DSD). It looks like I'll have to go with plan B and have all of my DSD files reside on the Seagate PersonalCloud servers instead of the Synology NAS.

    Jeff

    ps. Something really good has come from this exercise. Elsewhere I posted the following:

    My current biggest frustration with using my Sony X800s' GUI for streaming music from my servers, is their insistence on displaying/playing album tracks alphabetically.

    In order to be able to relatively quickly access any given album, I use a multi-folder arrangement that's basically MUSIC - Folders labelled A-Z - sub folders breaking those letter down further - then alpha by artist/group - then each album in its own folder by alpha. Up until that point everything's ok; it will take 30 seconds or less to access any album in my collection. There's a minimal amount of waiting time as I scroll/buffer through each sub-folder. But once inside the album folder the tracks show up not by track number, but in alpha order. Going that route I can't play an album in its intended order, unless I manually select each track.

    At the higher level of the GUI, I can also search by artist, or album or... but none of those solve the problem. By artist would lose the convenience of the sub-folder approach and mean scrolling through thousands of names to get to ZZ Top, for example, and even then the next level below artist spits out all their songs; and album would again involve potentially scrolling through tens of thousands of album folders and then the album is presented in alpha order anyhow.

    It seems like a simple fix, but like all things service-related when it comes to Sony, whenever I've written to their customer support to suggest it, either they ignore the message, or send back a "form" response that's as useful as "have you tried rebooting your device."

    Rant out.

    Well guess what? While using the MinimServer and the music folder that it indexed on the Synology NAS, the Sony X800 is presented with album folder contents in proper album order! That's HUGE!

    Much thanks @Apesbrain for having pointed me at MinimServer.
     
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  9. Kyhl

    Kyhl On break

    Location:
    Savage
    If it is finding the proper album order, assuming without the filename starting with the track number, then some combination of MinimServer and the Sony Gui is using the tags on the file to organize them. Welcome to the wonderful world of proper tagging. :sigh:
     
  10. Apesbrain

    Apesbrain Forum Resident

    Location:
    East Coast, USA
    That's because MinimServer is a competent media server that understands how to use tags to group files and stream them in the proper order. Apparently, the DLNA server on the Seagate is not as sophisticated and can only render files in the order they were written to the drive. The issue can be worked around by putting the track number in the filename, e.g. "01 - Taxman.dsf", and using a FAT sorter application to rearrange the folders and files in "date by alpha" order on the drive.

    Note that this app is designed to re-sort an entire drive like a USB flash drive, so I'm not sure if you can get this to work "out of the box" to solve your issue. You may need to create a FAT32 partition on the Seagate drive system into which you copy all your DSD files. Once they are copied over, you can use this application to sort that partition. Unfortunately, every time you add/edit files in this partition you will need to re-run the sorter.

    If you try any of this be sure to have a backup! Good luck.

    On the other hand...

    With the amount of time and money you've invested into your digital music collection, you might consider using a DLNA player more compliant than your Sony BD player. A modest investment in a Raspberry Pi 4B connected to your AV pre-amp via HDMI and running the Volumio OS would enable all of your music to be sorted properly and played. You'd have control over program selection and volume from your phone, tablet, or browser. All this for about $75.
     
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  11. jeffmackwood

    jeffmackwood Forum Resident Thread Starter

    Location:
    Ottawa
    Thanks again.

    I've got probably 275,000 music files so I'm very leery about messing with their tags etc. It's taken more than 24 hours to copy them to the folders from my external hard drives, and I've still got a few hours to go.

    The FLAC and MP3 files are now all safely on the new Synology NAS and MinimServer (and as I've just found out, Synology's Media Server) is able to access and play them, and in proper album order. So all's good there.

    That leaves the DSD files which are being re-loaded onto the two original Seagate Servers, to balance the space used on each. The Seagate Media app that I've been running with them from day one accesses and plays them all through the Sonys. Just not in proper album order. I've just checked the available apps for the Seagates and Plex Media Server is available. I might install it and see if it will allow the Sonys to stream native DSD, and present albums in proper order, once the files are all in place.

    Jeff
     
  12. jeffmackwood

    jeffmackwood Forum Resident Thread Starter

    Location:
    Ottawa
    Current situation...

    I remain puzzled on two fronts.

    First, neither Synology Media Server nor MinimServer (or Audio Station) allowed the Sony X800 to "see" the DSD test file on the server. From this Synology page, it says

    Can my Synology product stream Direct Stream Digital (DSD) files?
    All Synology NAS products can directly stream Direct Stream Digital (DSD) files via Media Server or Audio Station to your DLNA devices or UPnP renderers for playback. However, audio conversion is required when DSD files are to be played on web browsers, Bluetooth, USB, or AirPlay speakers via Audio Station.​

    Since it was giving me nothing that Synology Media Server is now giving me (album contents in proper order) I've uninstalled MinimServer from the Synology.

    Second, I installed PLEX on one of my Seagate NAS devices, and while it shows up on the Sony X800 as a possible server connection, when I select server - audio - audio (or any folder combination) I get the message "Cannot communicate with server. Please try again later." The message came up as soon as I tried the first time. I figured it was because Plex was busy indexing, but the indexing finished long ago and I'm still getting the message. That message, by the way, has been brought up in numerous online Plex help threads and nobody ever seems to provide an answer that solves the problem. The only reason I'm installing Plex on those older Seagate NAS is because that's where my DSD files are (because they can't be seen if they're on the Synology - see first point above) and while the Seagate Media app allows the Sony to stream native DSD just fine, it does not present album folder contents in proper order. I'm hoping Plex would.

    If I don't figure out why I'm not able to communicate via the Sony X800 with the Plex server running on the Seagate NAS, I'll uninstall Plex.

    Jeff

    ps. I should also mention that, other than the DSD puzzle, the Synology NAS is quite the terrific beast. I'm hugely impressed with the speed at which I can load files to it; it's easily 3-5 times faster (depending on what I'm transferring) than when I do so with the Seagate NAS.
     
    Last edited: Jan 22, 2021
  13. jeffmackwood

    jeffmackwood Forum Resident Thread Starter

    Location:
    Ottawa
    I'm still hoping that there's someone out there reading this thread, and my OP and the thread's title in particular, that can chime in and say that they are using a Sony BD player to stream native DSD from a Synology NAS.

    Anyone?

    Jeff
     
  14. Kal Rubinson

    Kal Rubinson Senior Member

    Location:
    NYC
    I cannot reply to the exact specifics but I was able to stream native DSD from the earlier Sony UDPH1 player from my QNAP. Music in the Round #81: Classé Sigma Mono amplifier, Sony UHP-H1 universal player Page 2

    I do not see why there should be any difference between the QNAP and the Synology if they are running the same software. As for the player, well, that is unpredictable.
     
  15. Doug_B

    Doug_B Time Traveler

    Location:
    New Jersey
    I figure you probably would have tried this already if it was available to you, but I'll ask anyway. Does the Sony show any other connection type option to the Synology besides DLNA-based options, and if so, have you tried it?

    My Oppos (105 and 205) show the DLNA-based services active on my QNAP NAS, but they also show SMB access to the NAS (and to certain other shared devices on my network). SMB provides "basic" file access, not engaging the DLNA functionality of the far end server. I use SMB exclusively with my Oppo-to-QNAP connection, as my NAS doesn't work well performance-wise with the extra load associated with the DLNA functionality (the NAS is an old, entry level model).

    Doug
     
  16. jeffmackwood

    jeffmackwood Forum Resident Thread Starter

    Location:
    Ottawa
    Thanks Kal.

    Yeah, I've parked my logic circuit at the door when entering the Sony/NAS room!

    The Sony works with Seagate. Not with Synology.

    I've been in touch with Synology Support and it has them puzzled as well. Sure it's probably an issue with the Sony, where, exactly as warned in its manual, it might not be able to stream from a home network.

    Still waiting to hear if anyone has the exact same experience - but I appreciate all the input so far.

    Jeff

    ps. Funny anecdote. The person I'm dealing with at Synology Support is terrific; keen, responsive, genuinely interesting in finding a solution. But I had to laugh when he sent me a link to this thread and said "it seems like you're not the only one having the problem." I broke it to him gently that there's only one Jeff Mackwood out there, and that I'm it. :)
     
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  17. Kal Rubinson

    Kal Rubinson Senior Member

    Location:
    NYC
    How are you using it? I have never had an issue of differences among storage sites.
     
  18. jonwoody

    jonwoody Tragically Unhip

    Location:
    Washington DC
    I was going to suggest you call Synology support then I got to this message. They really are great and real people not a call center. And sending you your thread is a total crackup! :laugh:
     
  19. jeffmackwood

    jeffmackwood Forum Resident Thread Starter

    Location:
    Ottawa
    Both the Seagates and Synology are on the same Home Network. Both have DLNA active.

    The current Seagates I've had for a couple of years; and previous Seagate NAS before that. The Sonys have had no problems seeing and accessing DSD, FLAC and MP3 music from the Seagates. The Seagate servers show up as possible network connections for the Sonys. I select them. It works. (Photos and video as well.)

    The Synology NAS is new. The Sonys see it as a possible network connection. I click on it and can navigate to and see all of my music files; all but DSD. They play FLAC and MP3 perfectly. They also see and display / play any photos and video files.

    I have looked for and accessed every possible setting that I can find for the Synology. Nothing allows me to see DSD files. (I therefore can't comment on whether it will actually play them, since it won't display them to be selected for play in the first place.)

    There's a test folder on the Synology. It contains one DSD, one FLAC, and one MP3 files. The Sony's see and navigate to that folder without issue. But they only see two out of three of the files. They do not see the DSD file.

    That identical folder is on one of the Seagate NAS. The Sony's see and navigate to the folder, and see and play all three files.

    Sure I could try loading all sorts of different apps (which I already did), but if the standard media server apps/packages that come with the Seagates, and the Synology, do everything perfectly well, the exception being the DSD with the Synology, what might trying even more kluges really fix? What's the fundamental reason why Sony, Synology, and DSD simply don't mix?

    Has anyone made it work?

    It's a puzzle.

    Jeff
     
  20. rocket76

    rocket76 Forum Resident

    Location:
    Chicago
    Have you tried under the Synology Media Server -> DMA compatibility -> Enter custom mime type and add "dsf=audio/dsd,dff=audio/dsd" to the box? I think that solved my DSD file issue with playing DSD/DSF files off the Synology.
     
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  21. jeffmackwood

    jeffmackwood Forum Resident Thread Starter

    Location:
    Ottawa
    Holy friggin' crap!!!

    Just tried it and it worked! I'm now seeing and playing the DSD test file.

    Exactly the type of non-intuitive (at least to me) solution that had to be out there.

    Thank you. Thank you. Thank you.

    Jeff
     
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  22. Uglyversal

    Uglyversal Forum Resident

    Location:
    Sydney
    Out of curiosity how did you come up with that entry?
     
  23. rocket76

    rocket76 Forum Resident

    Location:
    Chicago
    I found it somewhere on the interweb when trying to figure it out myself.
     
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  24. jeffmackwood

    jeffmackwood Forum Resident Thread Starter

    Location:
    Ottawa
    Now that I can stream native DSD from the Synology NAS to the Sony, yesterday I took delivery of and installed a second 8TB WD Red Plus drive. Both drives are in JBOD mode, giving over 14 TB of available space. My original plan was to use the Synology only for music files. So today I added my DSD files to it, and moved the video files to one of the 5TB Seagate PersonalCloud NAS. The other Seagate NAS has been wiped clean and put in storage as a backup should it ever be needed.

    Jeff
     
    Last edited: Jan 29, 2021
  25. Vinay

    Vinay Member

    Location:
    India
    What would be a budget player (Either BluRay player or AVR) to read DSD files from Synology NAS and transmit to HDMI?
     
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