Canare 4s11G. Is there a better cable?

Discussion in 'Audio Hardware' started by Leo Tos, Dec 22, 2021.

  1. action pact

    action pact Music Omnivore

    I'm honestly not great at focusing on very specific aspects of audio reproduction, I am more sensitive to the overall presentation as a whole.

    It's been a few years, but my recollection is with the Canare the music gained a lot more body and weight, and it might have become more punchy as well.
     
  2. ether-bored

    ether-bored way out west

    Fair enough. I appreciate your insight nonetheless.
     
    action pact likes this.
  3. fully_articulated

    fully_articulated Forum Resident

    If you're looking to try the Van Damme LCOFC, I have ordered some from Poland based Luca Sound & Vision. They can terminate with solid copper crimped banana plugs: LSV Sigma Gold-Plated Pure Copper 4mm Banana Plugs . I haven't received mine yet, but when I do the higher inductance Van Damme will be replacing a higher capacitance cable, the Wireworld Solstice.

    They also have the Tellurium Q Ultra Blue and others.

    Having said that, it sounds like the Canare is the cable for you and maybe you shouldn't be messing with success! :cool:
     
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  4. Leo Tos

    Leo Tos Well-Known Member Thread Starter

    Location:
    poland
    Difficult choice. At least there are plenty to choose from. :)
     
  5. hodgo

    hodgo Tea Making Gort (Yorkshire Branch) Staff

    Location:
    East Yorkshire
    Thank you and a Merry Christmas :righton:
     
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  6. Doctor Fine

    Doctor Fine Meat and Potatoes all day long

    I've had a 150 foot chunk of this wire for years---used it on two systems so far.
    I bet Markertek sold it to me as they handle bulk wire.
    Markertek is a cool parts catalog company here in the states.

    It might be worth it for you to gaze through their catalog as they have tons of interesting little gadgets for recording/live sound and music production TV studio use and the like.
    SOME of it even has great importance to how we install our gear over here in "audiophile land."
     
  7. Boltman92124

    Boltman92124 Go Padres!!

    Location:
    San Diego
    Nope. Just have to keep an eye on oxidation after some time goes by. Might sound best this way. Bare wire can be a pain on the amp end sometimes.
     
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  8. Doctor Fine

    Doctor Fine Meat and Potatoes all day long

    Uh-oh.
    Let's see if I can clear up whatever confusion is going on here.
    Pardon me while I type out a couple hundred words...

    You said your Canare is four conductor speaker wire--it has two pairs of speaker wire inside each sheath.
    YOU are tying the two pairs together into one pair.
    You are doing that because you were told it would decrese noise pollution (EMI) that might leak into the speaker cable otherwise.
    I say that noise leaking into speaker cables has never happened to me in my entire life.

    Try un-twisting your pairs at the speaker end.
    Leave the twisted together pairs at the amp end.

    So you then have two conductors available at the amp.
    And you also have FOUR conductors available at the Harbeths---TWO for tweeters and TWO for woofers if you remove the metal jumper going between the posts.

    This is what they call "bi-wiring."
    The idea is each driver voice coil (woofer/tweeter) reacts only to the voltage coming from each pair of wires INDEPENDENTLY.

    Any shift in timing or amperage due to bass notes no longer will interfere with the timing and clarity of the signal going to the tweeter voice coil.
    If you only run one pair of wires the voltage drain the woofer is putting on the line will also be "heard" by the tweeter which will suffer from the voltage swings that are going on from the woofer.

    At least that is the theory.
    All I know is bi-wiring SEEMS to make my speakers sound clearer IF they can handle separate termination and the factory put four terminals on the rear of the speaker.

    If you only have two terminals like Harbeth is NOW putting on their latest models then you are screwed.
    Luckily for you and me---we have models BEFORE Alan at Harbeth had the bright idea to remove the extra "un-needed" pairs of speaker terminals!

    Bi-amping with two separate stereo power amps is really the NEXT step if you have a speaker with separated input terminals (four or more) on the back.
    Bi-amping is more complicated and you need two stereo power amps---but the difference REALLY cleans up the output from my Harbeths.
    They become "hyper-clear."

    Bi-wiring only helped them maybe 10% improvment at the most.
    Bi-amping was like buying a whole new pair of speakers.
    With separate amps that came with independent volume controls for the amps---I can now "tune" the tilt between my woofers and tweeters to accommodate all different size rooms.

    It makes a Harbeth a chameleon.
    Tuned "bright" it sounds like a stat panel.
    Tuned "warmer" with more woofer and it sounds more mellow like a big Wharfdale.

    But it may be worth it to you to experiment with bi-wiring your setup.
    It only requires you stop twisting the wires together at the speaker end and place each wire on its appropriate speaker terminal (positives to positive, negatives to negative).
    You don't even have to buy ANYTHING.
    Just untwist those pairs of speaker wires at the speaker end and see if you like the sound.
     
  9. Roger P

    Roger P Forum Resident

    Location:
    Richmond VA
    I love mogami, all my interconnects are some form of mogami from rca to balanced.

    World Best cables on Amazon makes canare and mogami cables, really nice quality.
     
  10. Leo Tos

    Leo Tos Well-Known Member Thread Starter

    Location:
    poland
    Thank you, now it has become as clear as possible. I've used Canare as StarQuad, but I've also used it as bi-wiring before. But I suppose it would be better to add one more cable of the same type so that there are two factors at the same time: StarQuad and Bi-Wiring. Thanks, Doc.
     
  11. Doctor Fine

    Doctor Fine Meat and Potatoes all day long

    Sure.
    You could do that.
    Cheers.
     
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  12. TheVinylAddict

    TheVinylAddict Scientist's have opinions too

    Location:
    AZ
    Good post, interesting topic. I'll add, chime in with any clarifications if needed.

    Bi-wiring - IMO you *may* hear a difference, whether the difference is *better* is up to the system / listener. Bi-wiring is an area where you'll get a lot of "don't waste your time" feedback, but it's easy to try. Some think it's worth it. Since it's so easy to try, why not.

    Bi-amping - the topic is a little more complex - realize first there is active bi-amping, and passive bi-amping. Passive bi-amping means using two power amps, one for each speaker, and driving the high / low of the speaker with one amp. Passive bi-amping still relies on the speakers internal crossover to separate the signals it receives.

    Active biamping adds another component / layer to the mix - an *external* crossover to manage the highs / lows, in addition to one power amp per speaker. I've never done this, so won't offer much on this topic- but wanted to state it as a possibility. Most who do it passive bi-amp.

    Here's where there is a little confusion on the topic though - just because your amp has more than 2 sets of speaker cables - like the A / B arrangement on many amps, with four speaker terminals - doesn't always mean you can bi-amp with that arrangement. In fact, most of the time, the A/B speakers channels are driven by *one* amplifier internally, so in essence you aren't bi-amping if using the four terminals on the amp. Now, some amps do dedicate an amp to each A/B channel, so you can bi-amp with it, but most amps don't.

    So, if you're using all four speaker outputs on your amp for one speaker set, and the amps A/B channels are driving by *one* internal amplifier, you're still bi-wiring and not bi-amping.

    You need *separate / two* amps to bi-amp, just using the four terminals on the back for of your amp to manage highs and lows does not guarantee bi-amping, unless each set of terminals is driven by a separate amp.

    Thought I'd touch on that, it's where some of the confusion begins on bi-wiring and bi-amping.
     
    izeek likes this.
  13. bever70

    bever70 You sustain the rhythm, I'll maintain the beat

    Location:
    Belgium
    Try here : Handmade Professional Audio Cables - audiocables.eu - Mogami - Neutrik
    The guy is in Greece, dealt with him a few times, top service!
     
    Toneh likes this.
  14. TheVinylAddict

    TheVinylAddict Scientist's have opinions too

    Location:
    AZ
    As far as the thread title, IMO yes, there is a better cable than the 4 conductor 4311 :) - I like the Mogami 3104 better!

    But, it's also 12ga with the Mogami, versus 14 ga with the Canare -- and the Mogami is *much* thicker, at over a 1/2" thick -- so for short runs many choose the Canare due to this. The Mogami's large size can become a factor for some.

    For me, after trying / comparing Mogami to Canare, I actually use the Mogami 3103, but it's a 2 conductor version (and still thicker than the 4 conductor 4311!). I currently don't bi-wire, although I could with my current speakers. Tried it, there wasn't a big difference.

    For cost / value sweet spot in speaker cable, I choose Mogami, it's a little more $$ wise but still relatively cheap if you buy in bulk and not custom with terminations added.

    But it's Chevy vs Ford IMO, they'll both get the job done, and that's what really counts.
     
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  15. avanti1960

    avanti1960 Forum Resident

    Location:
    Chicago metro, USA
    I tried those Canares early on with my Harbeth C7ES3. They seemed to lack detail to my ears. I upgraded to Kimber 8PR and was pleasantly surprised. Better detail and top end yet still smooth and even better bass response. Currently using them on my Harbeth SHL5+.
     
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  16. Leo Tos

    Leo Tos Well-Known Member Thread Starter

    Location:
    poland
    There is another option Neotech NES-3005. But I have not yet seen a full response on this cable :shake:
     
  17. TheVinylAddict

    TheVinylAddict Scientist's have opinions too

    Location:
    AZ
    OK, so now we're going from a $1.80 a foot Canare 4311 cable, to a cryo-treated NES-3005 at $25 a foot.

    Maybe another option for some, but an unnecessary leap for others. :)
     
  18. stereoguy

    stereoguy Its Gotta Be True Stereo!

    Location:
    NYC
    Guys, for the Canare 4S11 cable, which colors do you twist together at the amp end to make one pair?
    Thanks.
     
  19. Leo Tos

    Leo Tos Well-Known Member Thread Starter

    Location:
    poland
    Red and pink together, White and transparent together.
    It's still not as expensive as mid-range Cardas or Nordost cables.
     
  20. TheVinylAddict

    TheVinylAddict Scientist's have opinions too

    Location:
    AZ
    In my situation / room set up, I had a choice on what cable had to be long, and of course it is the speaker cable. I run 22 foot of cable to each speaker, and why I chose 12 ga. 14 ga would probably still be OK, but nothing wrong with a little extra copper.

    So with 44 feet of cable, $25 a foot is not even in the cards, especially since there are high quality cables still in what I deem the "sweet spot" where diminishing returns kick in for my level of set up. Why spend $25 a foot when $2 - $3 a foot does the job? :)

    Heck, at $3 a foot, even the Mogami 3103 I use is still $135, which most on the planet who employ speakers would also deem expensive / excessive! :) Even many reading this - they already think I'm crazy for spending that much! I couldn't imagine spending over a grand for my speaker cable with that Neotech, I can'timagine what it would cost for the most expensive Cardas or Nordost, frankly don't even care, I'd never go there.
     
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  21. Leo Tos

    Leo Tos Well-Known Member Thread Starter

    Location:
    poland
    I need 5 meters for each speaker. This is really a lot.
     
  22. TheVinylAddict

    TheVinylAddict Scientist's have opinions too

    Location:
    AZ
    5 meters is 17 feet, only 5 feet less per speaker than my 22 foot.. that's not that much more. :)

    Even at 17 feet though, if you're driving a high power amp, and tough to drive low impedance / sensitivity speakers, using 12 ga over 14 ga starts to come into the equation perhaps. Most situations with low to mid powered amps 14ga is enough.
     
    Doctor Fine likes this.
  23. izeek

    izeek Drums, pulleeez!

    Location:
    md
    there might be better but im not in that hunt at the moment.
    ive so enjoyed the 2 sets of bi-amp 4s11 ive got. one from bjc and the other a custom from a guy on reddit who made me a really nice pair.
     
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  24. TheVinylAddict

    TheVinylAddict Scientist's have opinions too

    Location:
    AZ
    I'd say you're already in the "all you need" category where you could spend more, but why.... :) Many would make the case we're even spending too much on the application, but I like the additional quality of something like the 3103, and willing to pay up slightly for it.

    I experimented with a few moderately price ones, including the 4311, Mogami 3103/4, the BJC Belden 10 / 12 gauge and a couple more. It's cables, and it usually comes down to subtleties, but have enjoyed the Mogami 3103. I could be happy with any of those mentioned here though.
     
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  25. Toneh

    Toneh Forum Resident

    Location:
    Middle Earth
    I feel the same.

    I consider other speaker cables out of curiosity and because the cost of these "pro" cable options are generally so low it seems like a fun idea to try. Perhaps one day I'll follow through on my curiosity and may even be pleasantly surprised. But I never feel like I'm missing out on anything using these Canare's so curiosity quickly gives way to satisfaction and I just play some more music instead.

    I guess as the old saying goes - if it ain't broke, don't fix it.
     
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