Carol Kaye/James Jamerson, what's this all about? *

Ive been reading and doing some work about bass playing (I play Piano, Sax Oboe) and want to learn bass before I go away to the happy hunting ground.
This might of and probably did come up before on this thread and many other sites but what is all this he said she said about tracks from Motown and tons of other musical recorders of who played what. Its hard to lie, their are records(Union and otherwise).
Who hear knows enough about what the truth is without going on and on like I do. Much appreciated.
I love both styles but had afiinity toward Carols work as a child and did not even know it was her, but the group or person who we all thought played the music. I love a good pick on a Bass and her Jazz licks come through so thats part of it I guess. Thankyou in advance, John M.

 

Trying to get this post moved to music, sorry...apesfan John M

 

Carol Kaye seems to have confused playing on Motown covers and later projects with the original recordings done in the '60s. Holland-Dozier-Holland, the crack writing/producing team at Motown in their heyday, have gone so far as to sign an affidavit stating that James Jamerson was the bassist on their sessions, bar none. That's just about all you need to know.

Plus, the original Motown multi-tracks exist, where you can isolate the bass tracks. These were done on Motown's Detroit studio's custom 1", 8 track machine. No way those could have been played on by Carol Kaye. I think the United Western studios only had 4 track machines at that point (think of the Beach Boys' recordings). No doubt, those recordings originally being done on 8tracks, whereby you can isolate the Jamerson bass tracks, is a gift to our generation and pretty much refutes Kaye's assertion that she played on the original Motown recordings. Finally, you can hear the bass parts are not being played with a pick, but with the finger, and that's how Jamerson played. Kaye has always played with a pick.

Carol Kaye is a legend, but her claim to the original Motown recordings is simply false.

 

Their were many LA sessions done by Motown and Carol was queen of the Bass and since Motown was very money concious I pretty sure Carol and many session players (Wrecking Crew) did play on the more Vegas records by the Temps and Tops. She would play without a pick , wouldnt she, if ordered by the producer.
Its just seems so silly and very public to make statements when she knows they can be proven. Take care John M.

 

Some info here:

http://www.bassland.net/jamerson.html

 

She knows she played for some dates for Motown, but they certainly weren't the majority of the hits.

No, a producer wouldn't make a request like that, to play with a pick or not. They wouldn't really care. Plus, it's a totally different technique.

You seem intent on defending Kaye. The fact that all the other musicians and producers in Detroit say that the guy was Jamerson, coupled with the fact that he is the one on the 8 track multis, pretty much seals the deal for me.

 

This article pretty much sums it up. Jamerson played on all the Detroit recordings, IMO it is unmistakably him.

I don't think Kaye was lying, I think she may have been mistaken or played on demos of the songs in question...

-Aaron

 

Actually it's pretty easy to tell them apart. James uses his finger, had dead strings and is often very distorted. Carol almost always uses a pick and is usually pretty clean.

 

I dont want to defend anybody. Im just trying to comprehend how anybody could make claims and not have proof. I like her style but I like Jamersons just as much. Kayes style just seems to be more ingrained in the Pop music of the sixties like Hal Blaine and many others who played on almost everything from California at that time, so I cant help what I prefer. If she is lieing then she is a lier.
Remember these are LA dates and where the Motown groups did their recording in the late 60s to 70s was documented in LA. Since the documentary on the Funk Brothers confirms the move, it can make one wonder(not me) that a Carol could have played on a song like Masterpiece or Carwash even Papa...I dont believe it was anybody but James on most of those tracks but an argument can be made by illinformed nuts or bad memories...Take care John M.

 

I think Carol played on the songs she said she did. What I think though, is many of those were recorded for TV specials or other sessions as opposed to the original records.

Also keep in mind that with session players, sometimes it's hard to know what you actually played on. Remember that they were playing before there were any vocals. They played on so many sessions that I can see reasons for this type of confusion.

 

Thats very true about TV apperances and special play dates and other such things. Big white lies I guess, John M.

 

Maybe Carol also played with Bernard Pretty Purdie on those Beatles records too.... Arnie

 

John M - It's pretty simple actually - she was one of the first people to put the bass scores (line) to recorded popular hits in her electric bass instruction book. This was starting around 1969.

When Alan Slutsky researched the Standing In The Shadows of Motown book in the mid-80s, she might have claimed a few too many Motown hit songs to her legacy to Jamerson's biographer.

She was defending what she had printed in a bass instruction book to another guy writing a glorified bass instruction book about James Jamerson.

It was pretty small potatoes. As time progressed into the age of the internet, you can't make claims you can't back up.

Elvis's sometime drummer, the late Larry Londin, also made some pretty fantastic Motown claims which had he lived past 1992, would have been laughable.

Carol did work on many Motown sessions. She probably played on a few hits too.

Motown hits recorded in LA prior to "I Want You Back":

More Love - Smokey
Love Is Here & Now You're Gone - Supremes
Every Little Bit Hurts - Brenda Holloway
You've Made Me So Very Happy - Brenda H.
I'll Try Something New - Supremes & Temptations

She played on some released album tracks too - producer Deke Richards 100% stated that she played bass on The Temptations - Why Did You Leave Me Darling.

Likewise the famous northern soul hit - Frank Wilson's "Do I Love You" is probably her too since it's a picked bass part.

 

It's also worth noting that most of the 60s Motown hit basslines that were not played by Jamerson were performed by Bob Babbitt.

This is well documented.

 

According to Motown's Complete Singles 1970, Bob Babbitt started recording with Motown in 1969 on Stevie Wonder's "We Can Work It Out" which wasn't released until 1970.

His first major hit was "Signed Sealed Delivered" recorded after "We Can Work" but released first (still in 1970).

Bob Babbitt recorded on many hit records in the 1960s, but none for Motown Records.

 

I stand corrected. I was thinking very late 60s/ early 70s. Babbitt did significant cool Motown stuff in 1970 and 1971.

 

I do believe Bob played on many recordings in the 60s for labels that were later bought out by Motown (Ric-Tic/Golden World, for example), so that would add to the confusion...

 

Carole mentions Elvis sessions. According to Joregerson book, the Clambake session she was going to be on was cancelled. However, I read that she did play on the movie (non record) versions of the Change of Habit Soundtrack songs.

 

IIRC, Carol said that studio musicians played the Doors songs. I haven't paid attention to her since I heard that.

 

Wouldn't you think Carol would listen on headphones and be able to tell the playing is not her style? It's not like their sound or attack or groove were all that similar.

 

Aaron,

Jamerson didn't play on all of the Detroit Motown recordings. The majority? Yes, but not all of them...lest you forget Mr. Bob Babbitt.

 

Carol, I believe, played on many west coast Motown sessions (Bobby Darin, etc). She also did various soundtracks for Motown TV specials. So yes, she may have recorded some tracks that originally had Jamerson for a TV special, just not the original records.

 

I would hope Carol is just mistaken since she was used in so many records of the day recorded in LA. With her TRUE list of recordings, she would have no reason at all to make anything up. There seems to be friction between her and Hal Blaine. Maybe because Hal got so much more attention than Carol. And let's be honest, I'm sure there was a 'boys club" atmosphere back then.

 

I would hope Carol is just mistaken since she was used in so many records of the day recorded in LA. With her TRUE list of recordings, she would have no reason at all to make anything up. There seems to be friction between her and Hal Blaine. Maybe because Hal got so much more attention than Carol. And let's be honest, I'm sure there was a 'boys club" atmosphere back then.

 

And don't forget Tony Newton who often doubled basslines with Jamerson. It was he who played bass on the original version of 'Tears Of A Clown'. Bob Babbit was on the remixed 1970 US 45 version.

The problem has always been that she claimed to have played on all the classics that were cut in Detroit.

We know she was used on some, if not all of the Motown L.A cuts, but she still insists she played on stuff that was cut at Hitsville!

Cheers

Paul