Cartridge or phono pre?

I have not heard it and that is a huge flaw in my advice. I have looked at it and read the reviews. It seems to be a very good phono for the price. Size isn't everything but a bigger chassis generally tends to be packed with more design and technology. To me the emotive seemed to be the best entry level phono and I wanted to get beyond that. It seems like that might be where you are as well.

When I was choosing at or around that price point, I went with a musical fidelity m1. It was $500 new and If you could find one used, I would think it would cost about $200. It is much better than every internal phono I have had including the one in my fisher 400.

I'm a big fan of tubes in the phono and I find it does deliver the detail but it doesn't come cheap. If the budget is under $2,000, I think solid state is where it's at.

The simaudio moon is where I would go for a for a SS phono as of now.

MOON by Simaudio - 110LP MM/MC Phono Preamp (Black) **DEMO** | Shop Music Direct

 

This is more of what I was thinking

EAR 835P Phone Pre-Amplifier | Phono | Reno, Nevada 89511 | Audiogon

Sold new for $2,500, listed for $500

 

Most of the preamps below $500 are simple opamp designs, some surely better than others, but that's a design choice (IMO) that limits how far you can take the sound quality. Some of the designers like Ron Sutherland and Graham Slee and Robert Morin and others that choose to design with opamps do a very good job, choosing high speed parts and spend long hours optimizing them to their designs, but in my experience, it is hard to beat a fully discrete design with limited (or no) feedback, just a few transistors (or tubes), so I would try to give a listen to the Rialto from Andrew Rothwell in the UK for around $450 in the US. Even though the preamp does both MM and MC, he's not ashamed to recommend a SUT to better his MC circuit, but it will do a very nice job until you are ready to take that next step.

And even though the Michael Yee designed Musical Surroundings Phonomena II+ retails for $750, you can often find it near mint for around your $500 price, I have one I bought for about that a few months ago on Audiogon for a second system, and can attest to the great sound quality, and especially the flexibility. Not quite the equal of the phono stage in my Conrad-Johnson preamp for that elusive relaxed sound that is so addicting (the CJ is somewhat unique in that it has no electrolytic capacitors and is built to just sound good, without as many price and space constraints as a modern design), but the MS definitely shows no shame, very nice preamp.

There are undoubtedly others that will give you a lease on the future and become a central part of your system that you can grow around, that's something to think about. Once you have a budget system that sounds good, and have an idea where you want to go in the future, with maybe a good idea of where you want to wind up, go ahead and start looking for the pieces that will get you there. Get something to build around, something that may be a little beyond your budget now but that you would like to grow into, maybe it's an amp, or a turntable, could be speakers or a phono cartridge, but something to anchor the system and give it some of your personality. Many of us go through a ton of hardware and never really get it all together, our systems are always in a state of flux, we mix and match without a clear vision of what we want. Others manage to build around a component that defines their vision, working toward a complete system synergy, those are the ones that capture magic in their rooms, and I think that's the type audio system most of us wanna have. But to get there, you have to think about what's important to you.

 

Wonderful advice. Thanks, Davey. I think I have anchored around the Primare I32 and Oracle Alexandria for the foreseeable future. I'll keep My eye open for a Phenom II or Rothwell.

 

My two cents: The DL-301/II is a high compliance cartridge. You have it installed on, basically, a Jelco - a medium weight arm. I'd get a low/med compliance cart and see how that improves your sound. Swap the 301 onto a light-weight arm, if you have another table with one, to have it really shine.

A budget cart suggestion of good quality:

Ortofon MC-3 Turbo phono cartridge

 

Tavish has not stopped building, they have a backlog of orders. You need to get on a waiting list to place an order, and if you change your mind when it becomes available - they just give it to the next guy on the list.

 

Upgrading my phono stage was the biggest "wow" moment I've had in this hobby.
I bought a used Sutherland Ph3d and I can't say enough good things about it. Battery powered so no noise issues and with lots of adjustability.

I love tubes but I think the phono stage is not the place for them. I want the cleanest signal I can get. YMMV of course.

 

Yea, the Oracle Alexandria is a nice table to build around, always liked their suspended designs. I was just eyeing a Premier that showed up on Audiogon a couple days ago with Tri-Planar tonearm, looks pretty cool, bet it sounds nice too, if I didn't already have so many turntables ...

 

My personal experience with this unit is that it's colored sounding, in a classic EAR way. It's also gotten a bit long in the tooth, but for the asking price, it's a steal

 

Buy the Premier and sell one that it "beats." ;^)

 

I went to an Audiokarma members' meet yesterday. No one brought a stand alone phono stage!

 

Douk Audio makes a copy of the EAR and it's pretty darn nice. It's a lot of Tube Phono Pre for the money.

 

After reading a post on another forum that the XPS-1 would benefit greatly from switching to a linear power supply, I ordered one. I tried it yesterday. I was underwhelmed.
Maybe it takes time to burn in like so many other things in this "am I really hearing that?" hobby. Or maybe my household power is less noisy than the other author. At least I didn't waste a lot of money.

 

I know I'm going to hate myself in the morning; but as has happened in the past, exploring options for future upgrade paths has resulted in premature e-jack-ulation. As in the Jacksons flew out of my wallet.
Elusive Disc is having a trade-in promotion and they got me for a Hana EL. %10 off for a non-working Digitrac.
I know I've gone against some of your excellent advice; but please don't cut me off.
I've ordered a 15 gram headshell to help match the low 5 gram weight of the EL with my Sumiko Premier MMT. Are there any other tweaks I should look at?

 

Although it seems I've lost my audience, I thought I'd update in case this thread shows up on future searches.
The Emotiva XPS-1 is quite capable of resolving differences between the Denon DL-301 mk II and the Hana EL.

I am really enjoying the Hana. The soundstage is deeper and more defined. Tonal balance is superb. There is a clarity that I find hard to describe, but appreciate on most LPs. Occasionally it seems to surpass reality into artificial hyperclarity, if I may. Not overly bright. but not exactly natural. Hard to describe. My first impression was that it revealed more surface noise; but when I went back to the 301 I changed my opinion. I wonder if my dealer will loan me a Clearaudio or Rogue for a home demo? Just to see where the XPS-1 sits.

 

I've heard the Emotiva, and am not a fan. The Vincent PHO-8 or iPhono 2 are both a step up without breaking the bank.

 

A pleasing cartridge is a more rewarding effort than a suitable pre-amp. My 2 cents

 

If it were me I would I would look at a SUT or a head-amp for the Emotiva. Then when the budget allows replace the Emotiva with a MM only pre of very high quality. This will allow you more flexibility when you change cartridges. The Vista Audio Phono-2 would be an upgrade to the Emotiva's mm section.

 

I was thinking about a SUT with my Schiit Mani; which has a better MM section than the Emo. I've read good things about the Rothwells.

 

Keep the Denon. Save some more money and then look for new phono preamp. Good luck.

 

An Oracle with a Hana needs a much better phono than that. Here you go....
Sutherland - KC Vibe Phono Preamplifier
One set of inputs, no mm/mc switch needed. Gain is adjustable from 40 db to 60 db in 5 even steps. Input impedance has 5 settings, any of which can be used with any gain setting. 47k, 1k, 470, 200, 100. This phono stage will even work with some of the low output Soundsmith cartridges that need 60 db gain combined with a 500 ohm impedance. No switches of any kind, especially cheapo dip switches. Gain and impedance are set by two high quality jumpers in each channel. Top is easily removed with 4 big screws. I flat love mine. Only way I dump it is if I can ever move up to a higher level Sutherland. Here is a nice interview of Ron Sutherland by Mikey Fremer. Got to about the 10 minute mark for Sutherland. This interview piqued my interest. Hearing it a month later in a system with Audio Research electronics driving Martin Logan 15A speakers sealed the deal.


I dont know why Sutherland stuff is so overlooked on here. I had a dealer in driving range, you may not, but Music Direct is solid. This unit replaced the highly regarded PH3d model at a slightly reduced price. Ive been working in the industrial electronics/process control instrumentation field for about 25 years. Listening to Sutherland in that video impressed the hell out of me. No BS, just solid engineering.

 

Thanks. I'll add the KC Vibe to my short list.

 

Posting a similar question here seems to make the most sense.

Very much a newbie here. I am about to pull trigger on a demo Pro-ject RPM 9.2 with a Sumiko Blue Point EVO III Cartridge. I have an option of going without the Cartridge and looking for something else but the effective additional cost with the EVOIII is only $127. What I have to determine is whether to go with the Low Voltage or High Voltage version of the BPS EVOIII or something entirely different . I don't have the electronics acquired yet but am trying to work within a budget of $2000 for Integrated/Phono. I did buy some lovely used Fritz MTMs, 4 Ohm so speakers are all set.

If I go with the HO MC then I am leaning towards a Rogue Sphinx or similar, perhaps a demo/slightly used Rogue Cronus Magnum. I am partial to tubes.
i.e.
Pro-Ject 9.2 >> BPS EVOIII HO >> Rogue Sphinx >> Fritz MTMs

If I go with the LO MC then assume I would need to worry about Phono pre-amp and some sort of Step-Up solution. Perhaps instead of the Rogue Sphinx which only accepts HO MCs over 2mVs perhaps I look at a Jolida 502CRC + the Jolida JD9?
i.e.
Pro-Ject 9.2 >> BPS EVOIII LO >> ???? >> Fritz MTMs

Already seen some suitable ideas in this thread - especially the Moon, Sutherland, Phonomena suggestions... but with so many options would love some thoughts here on Integrated/Phono Preamp to round out my first serious foray into audio

P.S. Going High Voltage is current preference to keep my setup simple with an Integrated with a built-in Phono, costs a bit lower and look later for LO MCs and going down the separates path.

cheers
Andrew

 

What a beautiful design. With something like the Tavish sitting in between a Low Voltage MC cart and an Integrated, would I still need a Step-Up Transformer? Sorry for the newbie question!

 

I wonder if you are letting the tail wag the dog. If analog is your only priority; your approach is logical; however if the integrated is going to be used for other sources (CD, server) then I would get the integrated I liked the most regardless of the Phono stages built in. You can always address the Phono issues externally and even inexpensive external MC options are more flexible and better sounding than most internal ones. IMHO. $127 is unbeatable for a BPS EVO III, unless the dealer lets you substitute for the same price. The EVO III is one of the better HOMCs I understand; but I doubt if it can quite match the LOMC for inner detail.

So, I would get the best integrated I could demo and afford and carve a little out of my budget for a MM/MC phono stage. As little as $130 will get you a Schiit Mani or a used XPS-1. It's cheaper and easier to upgrade a phono stage than an intrgrated amp. That's where I am right now, as a matter of fact.

Happy listening,
Jim