Chicago Tranisity Authority LP - TML pressings ("Barry" & "Ian")

Discussion in 'Music Corner' started by TheVinylAddict, Jan 2, 2018.

  1. TheVinylAddict

    TheVinylAddict Forum Resident Thread Starter

    I have two CTA pressings - one is the original '69 2-eye - it's not bad, but not great....

    Then I have a second one - it's a 197?? repress, with the following runout:

    P XSM-139684 IN TML-M -IAN D
    P o XSM 139684-1D F1
    T1 XSM-139839-1CG TML-M
    G1P XSM-139840 G1B Barry A

    I can't find any of the TML's on discogs, especially with "Barry" or "Ian" handwritten. The TML is stamped.

    I have read here on the Hoff on older threads, and elsewhere that the TML's are the ones to have - I am listening to it right now, right after the 2-eye and it is very nice. It's amazing the dichotomy of pressings from Columbia in the 70's - some can be bad and then there are one or two done right. This is one of them. It is definitely a pleasant surprise.

    Does anyone else have any of the TML 70's represses, or more information on them? Like I said, I can't find any copies on Discogs (unless I missed something, I looked pretty thoroughly) - what year was this pressed? Can anyone verify that these were desirable / better pressings? My ears are telling me so...

    Thanks in advance.
  2. pbuzby

    pbuzby Forum Resident

    Chicago, IL, US
    The G1 on side 4 indicates that this side is from Carrollton, GA, who I think started pressing for Columbia in the early 80s.
    McLover likes this.
  3. Raunchnroll

    Raunchnroll Forum Resident

    Yeah what a mix of old and new lacquer sources! Frankly I don't think the TML's are that much 'over' a good original with 1B and 1C lacquers, but they are about as nice a mastering as are likely to be found. The trick is getting one that has all 4 sides with TML. Very very tough in my experience. Its a bummer when I find a copy with 3 sides then the 4th side checked is a non-TML!
  4. MickAvory

    MickAvory Forum Resident

    New Orleans, LA
    I've seen Barry's name on a few pressings for other Columbia artists that I have pressed at Columbia's Carrollton, GA plant, not necessarily Chicago releases. He was probably an in-house cutter for Columbia in the late 70s - 80s. It looks like your CTA is a mis-mash of stampers, some coming from Pittman, Terre Haute and Carrollton. I'd bet it was all pressed at Carrollton since they are the later facility and I'd bet the other plates got sent to them.

    As far as Ian on the TML side 1.. that's an odd one. I've never seen a TML cut with anybody's name on it. I've only seen the stamped TML-M or TML-S, sometimes a TML-X.

    I've read on here that the TML cuts are the ones to have, but my TML cuts don't start until Chicago 8. All the rest of my discs before 8 are original Columbia cuts with a variety of cut letters, mostly low single letter cuts. But my CTA does have higher double letter cuts on sides 3 & 4.
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  5. TheVinylAddict

    TheVinylAddict Forum Resident Thread Starter

    Yes, but the "P" on Sides 1/2 are cor the "Pitman" plant and the "T1" on side 3 is "Terre Haute" plant.

    This multiple plants on the runout is not uncommon, where there are different pressing plant indicators on different sides or albums, like "Santa Maria" and "Terre Haute", etc... this is the first time I have seen three though. Doesn't mean the records are mixed - I guess it is entirely possible the two different records were not made in the same plant but married up... maybe the mother was made at one plant, the stamping at another... there are people here that can probably give the exact details. But this is one of those with multiples - even three!

    Only adds to the intrigue and mystery of this copy, I am having trouble finding it anywhere online with these details in the runout. I am sure others have it, but it is definitely not a widely distributed / sold version.

    I have it logged in my spreadsheet as "Pitman" with a note that it's multiple plants... I have a lot of other albums that have this mix of multilple pressing plants - like Santa Maria, Carrolton, Terre Haute mixed on different albums, even sides.etc.
    Last edited: Jan 2, 2018
  6. TheVinylAddict

    TheVinylAddict Forum Resident Thread Starter

    Yes, I have many albums with "Barry" from many artists - he signs the ones he masters or re-masters - I was not implying it was Chicago-specific, only that it is there. Much like "Wally" and others... this is common.
  7. TheVinylAddict

    TheVinylAddict Forum Resident Thread Starter

    I was typing the same thing above when you were typing yours... this is peculiar to have THREE plants on one LP release, no? I have seen two, but never three... then again I have 2000+ LPs so I might have missed that on a couple.
  8. TheVinylAddict

    TheVinylAddict Forum Resident Thread Starter

    I did not know that - I always was under the impression that TML on one side meant the whole album! Interesting.... thanks for that.
  9. TheVinylAddict

    TheVinylAddict Forum Resident Thread Starter

    The IAN is hand etched - I would say maybe the owners initials - but then again I seem to recall other LPs I have with IAN in the runout... going to search my spreadsheet now...., interestingly, of the 1500 albums I have logged, there is no Ian anywhere (at least in runouts I have logged). I seem to recollect it being in other runouts though - but could be wrong. Do you recollect ever seeing IAN?

    EDIT: I also went and searched all the TML's I have - a good number - but so far you are correct, no names with TML on the runout. So maybe IAN was the owner.... or MAYBE it is 1A"N" instead of IAN!!!
    Last edited: Jan 2, 2018
  10. TheVinylAddict

    TheVinylAddict Forum Resident Thread Starter

    Sorry to quote you on four separate responses (could have done it on one) but every time I re-read you make an interesting point! :)

    There is a thread on the Hoff from '06 that covers the Chicago CTA and II releases in detail, and it discussed from many posters have the TML releases - I think it starts to discuss on Page 3 - Great-sounding Chicago Transit Authority LP

    I just re-read parts, and it also touches on TML on side 1 but not side 2, etc... so obviously others have this release. It's early 70's, and from multiple sources it appears the TML's are also pre-Chicago 8, although it is harder to find them on Discogs....
    Last edited: Jan 2, 2018
  11. TheVinylAddict

    TheVinylAddict Forum Resident Thread Starter

    @MickAvory - I found this from @W.B. from a post he made in '06, note the bolding at the bottom:

    It's on page 3 of this thread Great-sounding Chicago Transit Authority LP , but I also pasted it below.

    "First, 'TML' was always machine-stamped, but didn't show up on lacquers mastered by them until towards the end of 1973. (I.I.N.M., early lacquers of their "Just You 'n' Me" single, #4-45933, didn't have the 'TML' stamp while later ones did.) It was around the second half of 1974 that machine-stamped 'TML-M', 'TML-S' and 'TML-X' insignia began turning up on the dead wax. Here are some ways to tell a pre-1973 'TML' lacquer: First, up to fall 1972 the lead-in was 7.625 on 45's and 32.3125 on LP's; after that, both speeds used 14.729167 lead-in; lead-out was always in the neighborhood of 3.92 (though on the particular Scullys used, the lead-in pitches appeared to be 7.7, 32.6 and 14.8, respectively, and the lead-out at 4, for the most part). Second, on 45's, songs over three minutes in length mostly used variable pitch rather than pre-set constant pitches, and were spread closer and thus not as much dead wax. Third, some record companies (namely, ABC/Dunhill, until later in 1973) and producers (Richard Perry and Tom Catalano) were big on TML. As, from 1972 on, were Neil Diamond (on both UNI and Columbia) and Bread (their last Elektra singles, both 1972-73 and 1976), ditto for Earth, Wind & Fire on their post-1975 releases. Fourth, some mastering engineers' writings were present on both pre-1973 and post-1973 TML lacquers (that is, those with and without the machine-stamped 'TML')."

    Also in this thread, they touch on this release being between '73 and '75, which jives with the above... so I think I am getting close to honing in on the date.
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  12. MickAvory

    MickAvory Forum Resident

    New Orleans, LA
    W.B. is always a wealth of info.. but I never know how to measure these lead-ins and lead-outs... I can really only go with the deadwax info right now..

    He is right that TML isn't always stamped. My copy of Nilsson Schmilsson has a hand scribed TML.
  13. TheVinylAddict

    TheVinylAddict Forum Resident Thread Starter

    I can't recall having a hand-scribed TML.... I may, heck I still have like 750 albums uncatalogued... but interesting that it exists.... I have many that are stamped of course.
  14. W.B.

    W.B. The Collector's Collector

    New York, NY, USA
    Late 1981, in fact.
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  15. TheVinylAddict

    TheVinylAddict Forum Resident Thread Starter

    While I won't argue that the Carrollton plant opened in 1981 (this is documented in many places, threads here from you in the past also W.B.) - they used G1 indicators in the early 70's on LP's also that were not indicative of pressing plant - in fact, check this out from a 1970 release of CTA:

    Chicago Transit Authority* - Chicago Transit Authority with runout variant:
    • Matrix / Runout (Variant 1: Runout side A, etched): XSM 139684-G1A 11 G1 B2 (J-MP)
    • Matrix / Runout (Variant 1: Runout side B, etched): XSM 139685-2H G1 A2
    • Matrix / Runout (Variant 1: Runout side C, etched): XSM 139839-1BG D G1 A 11
    • Matrix / Runout (Variant 1: Runout side D, etched): XSM 139840 - G1D 11 G1 C1 <J-T>
    Then, most I have seen where Carrollton was the plant, it has "G1" without any other letters attached - then typically this is at the beginning or end of the runout, and not interspersed additionally like the runout above, and for the original post. If it just said "G1", and not have two different "G" codes, then I agree it would be Carrollton, but in this case I am not so sure.

    Then, finally, I am finding no evidence anywhere that COlumbia pressed this LP in the early 80's in the US....

    @W.B. - I realize your post did not say or confirm Carrollton, you just concurred it opened in 1981... I am just continuing on the search to understand when this was made. I am thinking it is a 1974 repress which jives with a lot of the info I am finding.

    EDIT: I also know there are errors all over Discogs, so not holding the date above 1970 as gospel... but still have seen the "G1x" used on runouts pre-Carrollton...
    Last edited: Jan 3, 2018
  16. W.B.

    W.B. The Collector's Collector

    New York, NY, USA
    'G's usually began showing up on Carrollton pressings around 1983 or so. I have a 45 pressing from '82 that has no markings other that what the cutters etched (I have to presume it's Carrollton since the label type was consistent with Pitman - and the same label's Terre Haute pressings has a different type layout). 1974 repressings would, depending on where pressed, have had a smalled stamped 'P' (Pitman) or etched 'T' (Terre Haute) or an etched fowards or backwards 'S' (Santa Maria). Sometimes on the same copy, given how metal parts within Columbia plants 'got around'.
  17. TheVinylAddict

    TheVinylAddict Forum Resident Thread Starter

    So are you saying the two runouts I quoted are definitely Carrollton in your opinion?

    To support that G's may have been used pre-83 -

    Another album that I am pretty sure I bought in the late 70's where pressed at Pitman, has G's in the runout.

    Bruce Springsteen - Darkness On The Edge Of Town
    Matrix / Runout (Runout Groove Side A): AL-35318 G2F P (T-D)
    Matrix / Runout (Runout Groove Side B): BL-35318 G1C P (H-AD)

    So just saying that G's in the runout, especially coupled with a consanant in the middle of the runout, may not necessarily mean Carrollton.

    Again, just trying to verify, this is tricky stuff I know, and every time I think I have a trend, something pops up that is an exception to the rule....
  18. TheVinylAddict

    TheVinylAddict Forum Resident Thread Starter

    BTW, I see you added more to your post after I typed my last one.... yes, I have seen that too.... but this DOES have P's and T's on sides 1-3, adding to the confusion. (the original runout)
  19. TheVinylAddict

    TheVinylAddict Forum Resident Thread Starter

    @W.B. - One more thing - if this was pressed in 1983, wouldn't it have a barcode?? From what I can tell, most Columbia early 80's re-presses had barcodes too. This does not.
  20. pbuzby

    pbuzby Forum Resident

    Chicago, IL, US
    The photo of side one shows the 80's Columbia symbol (upside down triangle inside a circle) so this isn't from 1970.

    I have several Columbia reissue LPs I bought in the 80's that do not have barcodes.
  21. TheVinylAddict

    TheVinylAddict Forum Resident Thread Starter

    @pbuzby Do you have a link or data source to confirm that?

    I ask because I have been searching around diligently on that - only finding documented information confirming it was put on CD's in the 80's, but having trouble getting definitive proof when it was put on LP's. Not saying it is not true, only I am having trouble confirming - finding discussions on it but no conclusions. (but not many).

    Also, note that the LP in the original post does NOT have a triangle, this one I included and you quoted on Discogs COULD be in error, I noted that (or maybe not) but it is NOT the runout from the OP. So no triangle or barcode on the LP in the original post.... and still finding evidence of G's in the runout pre-83, even into the 70's.

    So still a lot of questions in my mind on this - I am still not convinced it is an 80's pressing.
  22. pbuzby

    pbuzby Forum Resident

    Chicago, IL, US
    There is a long thread about the symbol but I haven't read it. All I can say is that I got into LPs (new and old) in the early 80's and never saw that symbol until 1984 or 85.
  23. TheVinylAddict

    TheVinylAddict Forum Resident Thread Starter

    I have read many pages in that thread and there is no conclusive data on the triangle for LP's, there is for CD's but not LP's. This thread verifies there is nothing definitive: Top 40 Music on Compact Disc: The CBS Records Triangle I recall seeing on LP's much earlier but will have to dig to find it. Seems to be little data to conclude online...

    Just curious, can you share the titles you have from Columbia without barcode from 1983 forward?
  24. pbuzby

    pbuzby Forum Resident

    Chicago, IL, US
    Miles Davis - At Fillmore, Filles De Kilimanjaro, My Funny Valentine
    Firesign Theatre - Waiting For The Electrician, I Think We're All Bozos..., Everything You Know Is Wrong, In The Next World...
    Mahavishnu Orchestra - The Inner Mounting Flame
    Soft Machine - Third
    Weather Report - Mysterious Traveller

    I bought all of those circa 1986 to 88 and none have barcodes. They are mostly Carrollton stampers with some older ones mixed in. The Firesign Bozos LP is signed by Barry on side two and Anna (?) on side one. Since none of those were very popular albums anymore, they could have been sitting around for some time before I bought them.

    Some other Columbia reissues of those days that I have do have barcodes. As does the copy of Bruce Springsteen's Nebraska I got shortly after its release in 1982.
  25. 131east23

    131east23 Person of Interest

    I had tried 2 or 3 of these US albums until I found a UK with 66221-A1/66221-B1/66221-C1/66221-D1. Solved my problem with this album. I wish it was a bit cleaner but my other two cleaner US copies don't sound this good, plus when the song really gets going I can't hear any surface noise.

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